D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[SkidAce]

That fails your "appeal to tradition" test: characters over 20th level where not supported until 3rd edition.

The Immortals Rules and D&D Rules Cyclopedia would disagree.

 

[Krachek]

The version of the psion I'd want wouldn't be that versatile.

Like I said, it would have many natural restrictions. The psion would be limited to variations of the same 10-12 mental phenomena. Damage would be limited to psychic, force, bludgeoning, and maybe poison. No raising dead. Limited healing if any. No replication of skills. No actual transformation or tranmutation that isn't purely biological or physically manipulated. No conjuration or necromancy outside of maybe tapping into the Astral Plane.

Just a telekinetic telepath who can perceive extra things. Not a wizard.

I guess your telepathic and telekinetic power can be view as skill with all the versatility that some Dm can allow with them. In the case you state using a reaction to telekineticly catch a falling ally, some Dm might allow a athletic check to do the same. Telekinesis can be apply to athletic, acrobatic, sleight of hand, various tools, and also grappling, shoving, throwing.
telepathy can be apply to persuasion, deception, intimidation.
Describe like that it remove a lot of luster the the Psion, but the balance won’t let him be much better than a fighter or a rogue, except that it will be speechless and at distant.

 

[Minigiant]

You have never read the book, Firestarter by Stephen King, or seen the movie based on it, have you?

Nope.

But pyrokinesis I think is too much for the based Psion.
It could be a subclass.

The Base Psion should be limited to only a couple groups of powers all psion should be expected to have (telekinesis, telepathy, organ control, astral projection). Stuff like pyrokinesis and mental transportation would have to be extra.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Nope.

But pyrokinesis I think is too much for the based Psion.
It could be a subclass.

The Base Psion should be limited to only a couple groups of powers all psion should be expected to have (telekinesis, telepathy, organ control, astral projection). Stuff like pyrokinesis and mental transportation would have to be extra.

Yeah, that does seem a it much for the base class, but Psi-ers using elemental powers is a common enough trope (aformentioned stephen king books, lots of X-men mutants, and my personal favorite, EarthBound and the Mother games.) and different enough from a basic psion to make a subclass out of. Even if that doesn't work, it could always be a subclass of another class.

 

[dave2008]

The Immortals Rules and D&D Rules Cyclopedia would disagree.

That is technically a different game, not AD&D. Also, 4e supported over level 20 play in name only. They really just stretched 20 levels out to 30. For example, in 5e you can get the Wish spell at 17th level. In 4e, it was a 29th level spell. Monsters were similarly stretched out. Take the balor: 4e was lvl 29 and 5e is CR 19, or 2/3's the "level".

So I think you could say over 20th level play was really only supported in 3e. And really, other than Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook, what support was there? Any adventures? Any setting guides? Epic Level MM?

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Tradition = money is a good enough reason. Sure, in a debate you really should go further in explaining why you like the class and what you want, but really, it doesn't NEED to go further.


But that's not accurate. It DOES have meaning. If you like the tradition and want it to continue, that means something. It may not be a sufficient reason for you or have enough meaning for you, but it is a reason and it does have meaning.

He didn't say anything about money. And the idea that a psion class = money while psion subclasses don't is nonsensical. People will buy a book with psionics in it, not specifically one with a psion class.

So no, it does not have any meaning in this context, and doesn't put forth any good reasoning at all for why a psion class is better than psion subclasses.

 

[Mistwell]

But that's not accurate. It DOES have meaning. If you like the tradition and want it to continue, that means something. It may not be a sufficient reason for you or have enough meaning for you, but it is a reason and it does have meaning.

So why are you not crying for a Shaman class? A Witch class? A Wu-Jen class? A Ninja class? A Jester class?

If "it's traditional" has enough alone to be a meaningful reason, you'd be asking for those as well.

Which means it's more than just "it's tradition" going on here. Making "it's tradition" not in itself a very compelling reason.

 

[Maxperson]

He didn't say anything about money. And the idea that a psion class = money while psion subclasses don't is nonsensical.

You're right. People would totally love a D&D game where there were no full casters, and only partial casters.

People will buy a book with psionics in it, not specifically one with a psion class.

This is not entirely true. While they would by one without a Psion, they would sell a lot more WITH a Psion. People enjoy full casters, rather than just partial casters. As the existence of Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer and Clerics shows. I'm not including bard, because Bards as a full caster is a new thing and I don't think they needed to be.

So no, it does not have any meaning in this context

You can repeat that until you are blue in the face and it will still not be true. It just doesn't have meaning to YOU.

 

[Maxperson]

So why are you not crying for a Shaman class? A Witch class? A Wu-Jen class? A Ninja class? A Jester class?

Because those aren't my thing. You know what I wouldn't do? Poo poo on them if WotC wanted to make one or others wanted to have them in the game.

If "it's traditional" has enough alone to be a meaningful reason, you'd be asking for those as well.

Not so. We all have the traditions we like and go with. I don't have to fight for traditions that don't have meaning to me, when I have traditions that do that take up my time. Let others fight for those other traditions.

Edit: I also give more reason than just "tradition" when I debate. I'm just saying that tradition is enough for those that don't want to go any further.

 

[Minigiant]

I guess your telepathic and telekinetic power can be view as skill with all the versatility that some Dm can allow with them. In the case you state using a reaction to telekineticly catch a falling ally, some Dm might allow a athletic check to do the same. Telekinesis can be apply to athletic, acrobatic, sleight of hand, various tools, and also grappling, shoving, throwing.
telepathy can be apply to persuasion, deception, intimidation.
Describe like that it remove a lot of luster the the Psion, but the balance won’t let him be much better than a fighter or a rogue, except that it will be speechless and at distant.

Skills, yes. Tools, no if not proficient.
I don't want the "wizard" psion of the past.
No psionic knock!
If you are not proficient with thieves tools, you are just jiggling the lock tumblers with your mind and can be there for hours.

Yeah, that does seem a it much for the base class, but Psi-ers using elemental powers is a common enough trope (aformentioned stephen king books, lots of X-men mutants, and my personal favorite, EarthBound and the Mother games.) and different enough from a basic psion to make a subclass out of. Even if that doesn't work, it could always be a subclass of another class.

Sure.
The key is I don't want a psionic wizard. I want the psion to be it's own thing with its own natural logic about what it can and cant do.