D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[FlyingChihuahua]

And I already came up a way to stop Psions as just one example in a prior post in one of these threads. I have no idea which thread at this point. We(for the most part since there is one out there) aren't asking for more power.

What is that way to stop psions as they are casting?

 

[Aldarc]

What is that way to stop psions as they are casting?

If you see a psion casting a power via a Display, as has been proposed, then does that not qualify for Counterspell? I see nothing in the spell description requiring that the spell be identified via V, S, or M components.

 

[Krachek]

Don’t worry, Wotc are not fools, they will release a relatively balanced class.

 

[Maxperson]

What is that way to stop psions as they are casting?

Counterspell works.

I suggested making concentration required in order to cast, so if you can disrupt concentration by putting a psion in a situation where they are in pain, very uncomfortable, etc., they would not be able to cast. You could also make it so that exhaustion levels prevent access to abilities, to demonstrate a lack of ability to focus. Keep them from getting a long rest and they are done. There are other ways, too.

The point is that we are not trying to pull a fast one and get more power.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Counterspell works.

I suggested making concentration required in order to cast, so if you can disrupt concentration by putting a psion in a situation where they are in pain, very uncomfortable, etc., they would not be able to cast. You could also make it so that exhaustion levels prevent access to abilities, to demonstrate a lack of ability to focus. Keep them from getting a long rest and they are done. There are other ways, too.

The point is that we are not trying to pull a fast one and get more power.

So a concentration check based on damage taken in a previous turn or something like that?

I like that, that's good. It doesn't even have to stop the ability in it's tracks, could just give you disadvantage on the attack roll/the enemy advantage on the saving throw instead of just "screw you you don't get to be effective at all this turn"

Hell, with that, I don't really care about Counterspell immunity too much.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It's evidence, though, so it is in fact relevant to the discussion. When you combine that evidence, with the far stronger UA evidence, you come up with WotC wanting psionics to not have VSM.

The Mind Flayer example is very weak evidence of a specific exception to the general rule for one specific monster for one specific thing they do. Extrapolating from that is arguing from the specific to the general, which is a bad thing to do. It is an informal fallacy, which means that the conclusion isn't automatically incorrect (as with formal fallacies), but it does mean the argument does not support than conclusion.

The UA very clearly indicates that VSM applies to spells used by psionicists, unless they risk a resource to remove them. Doing so, however, doesn't change the spell into a psionic power -- that's your invention and totally unsupported by the rules as presented. Let's look at that section:

Psychic Sorcery.

When you cast a spell, you can use your mind to form it, rather than relying on words, gestures, and materials. To do so, roll your Psionic Talent die. The spell then requires no verbal component, and if you rolled the level of the spell or higher, the spell doesn’t require somatic or material components either.

Bolding is mine to point out that it's still a spell even after V or VSM are removed, and the action used is casting a spell. This has no indication that psionics is not VSM. Point of fact, I can engage this power to form the spell with my mind and still need SM components for it.

I didn't say no one. I said I hadn't seen one. I was clear that I was talking about what I have seen, since I don't read every post and skip some portions of longer ones sometimes.

Very techincally precise, Max. I'll agree you didn't see one. What's your point? You seeing things doesn't establish whether it exists or not. Rather, the point of your statement wasn't just commentary on your observations, but rather attempting to suggest that it didn't exist. Your further argument that it must be an outlier you didn't observe follows this in establishing that you're actually arguing that it's unnecessary to even consider undetectable psionics as a thing. That you're here making a technical argument about semantics either suggests you've reverted to arguing to spin, as you say you do when encountering posters that you deem to be engaging in bad faith, or lack a good argument. Please advise, as I don't really want to waste time if you're in spin mode.

And I already came up a way to stop Psions as just one example in a prior post in one of these threads. I have no idea which thread at this point. We(for the most part since there is one out there) aren't asking for more power.

I suppose that since you posted it there you cannot repost it here. That's an odd thing to do -- claim you've solved this problem elsewhere but can't really address it here.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you see a psion casting a power via a Display, as has been proposed, then does that not qualify for Counterspell? I see nothing in the spell description requiring that the spell be identified via V, S, or M components.

It's pat of the 'see a creature within 60 feet casting a spell'. If there's no VSM, what do you see? They don't speak, they don't move in any special way, and they don't pull anything out or brandish anything. Pretty sure there's a Sage Advice on this.

EDIT: yup -- When the Sorcerers use Subtle Spell can you avoid being effected by Counterspell if no materials are needed?

EDIT2: just reread and realized you're asking if the VSM is flavor swapped with a display. In that case, seems equitable. My only question, then, would be asking the same question I posed to Max above -- how do you prevent displays so that you can prevent psionic spells? If you cannot, this is a power increase (albeit conditional), and I think some expense or risk of a resource or other reduction in power/cost should apply.

 

[Aldarc]

It's pat of the 'see a creature within 60 feet casting a spell'. If there's no VSM, what do you see? They don't speak, they don't move in any special way, and they don't pull anything out or brandish anything. Pretty sure there's a Sage Advice on this.

EDIT: yup -- When the Sorcerers use Subtle Spell can you avoid being effected by Counterspell if no materials are needed?

Wasn't this clear in my post?

If you see a psion casting a power via a Display, as has been proposed, then does that not qualify for Counterspell? I see nothing in the spell description requiring that the spell be identified via V, S, or M components.

In 3e psionics, manifesting a power resulted in a Display as a in-fiction cue that the psionist is manifesting a power.

This is not the first time that Displays for psionics have been discussed in this thread. Maxperson has also mentioned them within the past two pages.

 

[Fenris-77]

No, there is no guarantee. However, if they aren't using spells, the lack of VSM is rather meaningless, as that's a mechanic associated with spells. So long as we're talking about VSM, we are talking about using the spell mechanic. Postulating that other mechanics might be created isn't terribly relevant.

That's why there was a second half to my post, the one that indexes the mechanical relevance of eliminating VSM. The idea that the mechanics might be different is also germane because if the mechanics aren't 'spells' them something would either have to replace VSM or not, which is also a decision based on game balance and mechanics. What we're really talking about is can I see them manifest a power and if I do can I do anything about it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Wasn't this clear in my post?

I added another edit, which it appears you grabbed my post before it hit when you replied. I'll post again here:
I just reread and realized you're asking if the VSM is flavor swapped with a display. In that case, seems equitable. My only question, then, would be asking the same question I posed to Max above -- how do you prevent displays so that you can prevent psionic spells? If you cannot, this is a power increase (albeit conditional), and I think some expense or risk of a resource or other reduction in power/cost should apply