D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Var]

I went ahead and double checked the concentration mechanics: "The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you're on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell. " is the only version that doesn't require an attack roll first. Even something like Stinking Cloud which can cause you to spend an entire round retching do not trigger concentration checks.

FYI - Sleet Storm does. Probably the thing you had in the back of your head when you started looking.

Until the spell ends, freezing rain and sleet fall in a 20-foot-tall cylinder with a 40-foot radius centered on a point you choose within range. The area is heavily obscured, and exposed flames in the area are doused.

The ground in the area is covered with slick ice, making it difficult terrain. When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it falls prone.

If a creature is concentrating in the spell’s area, the creature must make a successful Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or lose concentration.

 

[dave2008]

The flavor of the ability is that it converts all the way to mental if you roll high enough, which would very strongly imply that it's now a psionic ability. It starts out purely spell. Then you try to change it to mental. If you succeed partially, only one component is removed. If you succeed all the way, all of them go away.

But there is no need for implication. The text actually tells you it is still a spell:

Psychic Sorcery. When you cast a spell, you can use your mind to form it, rather than relying on words, gestures, and materials. To do so, roll your Psionic Talent die. The spell then requires no verbal component, and if you rolled the level of the spell or higher, the spell doesn’t require somatic or material components either.

If the a text tells you something, there is no need to imply what it is saying. And the text literally tells you it is a spell, regardless of how many components are needed to cast it. There really is nothing implied. That being said, WotC could change their minds in the final version. But in this UA, I am pretty sure you are not implying something, you are misunderstanding. It very specifically tells you:

"...the spell doesn’t require somatic or material components either."

It doesn't imply anything. It tells you it is a spell. What is implied is that you're using your psionic ability to manifest the spell, but is still very much a spell.

.

 

[dave2008]

It's not fully psionic with a partial success, so no. My position has not changed.

That may be your belief and that may be the case when it becomes official, but that is not what the text of the UA says.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Psionics in general, but also psionic spells in particular if that's how they go. Both? I was speaking generally. I would actually quite prefer the whole thing fall onto the 'can't be counterspelled' side precisely because they make good use of new ideas and mechanics and don't fall back on spells. I agree that the power level and flexibility should very much index counterability in some way.

Honestly, I think a class that has the versatility and power of a full spell caster but using unique mechanics is highly unlikely to the point of not being a terribly useful topic of discussion outside pure speculation or 3PP/fan creation.

A psionic class with some unique abilities, but leveraging the spell system seems more likely, but that also looks like the previous attempts at Mystic, which looks to be dead on the vine due to not enough people agreeing what it should be. Psionics really seems to be a case of very specific and intractable preferences that are strongly defended but not well explained. The VSM discussion is an good example: VSM exists as a limiter on spells, but there's strong opposition, if not coordinated in opinion, to including it as a limiter on psionics. Not because such things aren't without precedent in the inspiring literature or films, but because... I really don't know why. It's how it used to be really seems the core of that argument.

The bottom line is that the most likely "caster" version of a psion that might one day exist is a spell caster, using the spell system, with a psionics flair. Which leads to this instant discussion about VSM. Insisting that VSM be stripped for psionics to work is an interesting argument on it's own, but isn't going to happen in 5e because that alone instantly makes the psion a stronger caster than other classes. Keeping VSM, but changing it's flavor, that works. But you have to keep all of the bits involved in VSM, which isn't just counterspell -- it's the other ways that a caster may be prevented from casting spells. Or, you need to add a resource cost to be able to ignore VSM, in part or in whole, like the current UA does. Neatly, that's tacked onto the sorcerer, who already has a way to do this, so it's not a change to the capabilities of the class.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It's not fully psionic with a partial success, so no. My position has not changed.

Sorry, but what? You've used the power of your mind to shape the spell and removed the verbal component. This is the core of that ability -- use it and remove the V component. The kicker is the bit where you also remove S and M if, and only if, your psi-die rolls equal to or greater than the spell level you're casting. You cannot argue that the ability is not psionic if you use the core successfully but miss the kicker. That's special pleading.

 

[Var]

BTW don't remember who came along with "the designers think using psionics doesn't require VSM", but I went and rechecked. Psions creatuers don't require Material component, but still need V,S. Mindflayer from the MM, Elder Brain, Alhoon and Mindflayer Lich from Volos.
In contrast the Mindflayer Arcanists lacks that part and requires full V,S,M.
Seems pretty consistent to me.

The new Sorcerer Subclass is a break from the usual "Innate Spellcasting (Psionics)", being only able to eliminate V by default.
After noticing that, I'm leaning towards the assumption the Psionic Soul is indeed intended as a dedicated Sorcerer Subclass, not as the default stand in for a Psion option for PCs.

Might also be a pure balance decision as flat our removing M for PCs and the logistical and economical advantage was deemed more severe than impacting Silence/Counterspell interactions with V.

 

[Perun]

BTW don't remember who came along with "the designers think using psionics doesn't require VSM", but I went and rechecked. Psions creatuers don't require Material component, but still need V,S. Mindflayer from the MM, Elder Brain, Alhoon and Mindflayer Lich from Volos.
In contrast the Mindflayer Arcanists lacks that part and requires full V,S,M.
Seems pretty consistent to me

Not sure about the others, but the mind flayer from the MM clearly says: "It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components".

Also, mind flayer arcanist gets his Spellcasting in addition to his Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) ability. The former behaves like all other spells (requiring any necessary components), while the latter folows the rules specified in the description.

 

[Var]

Not sure about the others, but the mind flayer from the MM clearly says: "It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components".

Also, mind flayer arcanist gets his Spellcasting in addition to his Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) ability. The former behaves like all other spells (requiring any necessary components), while the latter folows the rules specified in the description.

Yes. The Innate Spellcasting Trait doesn't remove V or S.
Was that different in an older edition?


Innate Spellcasting
A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st Level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level. If a monster has a cantrip where its level matters and no level is given, use the monster’s challenge rating.

An innate spell can have Special rules or restrictions. For example, a Drow Mage can innately cast the Levitate spell, but the spell has a “self only” restriction, which means that the spell affects only the Drow Mage.

A monster’s innate Spells can’t be swapped out with other Spells. If a monster’s innate Spells don’t require Attack rolls, no Attack bonus is given for them.

Edit: look at that, so the (Psionics) does make a difference.

Innate Spellcasting (Psionics)
A monster that casts spells using only the power of its mind has the psionics tag added to its Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting special trait. This tag carries no special rules of its own, but other parts of the game might refer to it. A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells.

Nevermind then

 

[Perun]

Yes. The Innate Spellcasting Trait doesn't remove V or S.
Was that different in an older edition?


Innate Spellcasting
A monster with the innate ability to cast Spells has the Innate Spellcasting Special trait. Unless noted otherwise, an innate spell of 1st Level or higher is always cast at its lowest possible level and can’t be cast at a higher level. If a monster has a cantrip where its level matters and no level is given, use the monster’s challenge rating.

An innate spell can have Special rules or restrictions. For example, a Drow Mage can innately cast the Levitate spell, but the spell has a “self only” restriction, which means that the spell affects only the Drow Mage.

A monster’s innate Spells can’t be swapped out with other Spells. If a monster’s innate Spells don’t require Attack rolls, no Attack bonus is given for them.

Check Psionics, last section in the Special Traits, from which you quoted Innate Spellcasting (MM, p. 10). It provides general rules for psionics, and says: "A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells".

Also look under Mind flayer's Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) ability (MM, p.222), where it says what I quoted in the post above (It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components).

It seems clear that a mind flayer casting any of the spells listed under its Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) ability does so without any components necessary, V, S or M.

 

[Var]

Check Psionics, last section in the Special Traits, from which you quoted Innate Spellcasting (MM, p. 10). It provides general rules for psionics, and says: "A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells".

Also look under Mind flayer's Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) ability (MM, p.222), where it says what I quoted in the post above (It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components).

It seems clear that a mind flayer casting any of the spells listed under its Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) ability does so without any components necessary, V, S or M.

Yup noticed myself, reading comprehension error on my part. Thanks for pointing it out either way.

/Edit: Now I remember what confused me..... the Psionics trait on MM page 10 specifically calls out that it has no rules attached to it. Which it doesn't need to since the Monster Statblock removes the Components if it has "Innate Spellcasting (Psionics)". Bit of a mess to patch together but might open up some design option I can't think of right now.