D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Hussar]

How did we get so heated over a potential addition to the rules? I understand being passionate, but we need to step back here and evaluate what we are arguing about.
I want a psion class. I do not want a sorcerer or a wizard. We have those and they are very successful for filling the Vancian magic system. I want a new magic system. Not spell slots. Not spell points. It could be skill-based or even pseudo- dice pool like the Psionic Talent die.
5E is robust enough to warrant an expansion of the ruleset. The Psiknight is a pretty good representation of the psychic warrior for 5e, but it also feels like a lost opportunity to broaden the rules. The psychic soul sorcerer is a neat subclass but does not feel like psionicist or psion.

Well, from my perspective, it was - WotC puts out a pretty well received UA on psionics. Look at the longer threads, and the first five pages or so are all pretty positive. Then a few folks came in and insisted that we MUST have a full psion class or nothing. And, at the end of the day, there is no budging that position.

So, what you are seeing now is the chipping away at that echo chamber tower of folks who are insisting that nothing else but a full psionics class will do and anything else is a complete failure.

 

[Maxperson]

If D&D design and resources were more in line with Buckminster Fuller, then when one person gets what they wanted, we all do, if one person loses, we all do.

Unfortunately, D&D resources and design time does not exist in a “Bucky Dome”.....
..........It lives in a Thunder Dome!

Two ideas enter, one idea gets published.

“So ladies and gentlmen, boys and girls....
DYING TIME IS HERE”

If the psion class must die for a revised ranger, or a demonoligist/summoner class, or any of a hundred other things, that I care about more than a stand alone psion class, then the Psion dies!.

This is Thunder Dome, not Bucky Dome!

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note: Post meant, (mainly), in jest. If I see one more thread on Psionics, I’m going to go back to reading more covid 19 stories....as a break
Wake me up when the thread hits, page 20.

I'm fine with WotC making that decision. I'm not fine with people trying to kill other people's fun. Campaign for what you like, not against what other people do.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

They are equivalent, though. If existing psionic classes are enough and a pure Psion isn't needed, then existing arcane partial caster and existing partial divine classes are also enough. We don't need Clerics, Druids and Wizards.

YOUR argument applies to each equally. If you find that problematic with Wizards, Druids and/or Clerics, then it is also problematic with Psions.

I mean, they clearly are not enough.

WotC doesn't think they are, as there isn't one in 5E now, and they've stopped developing one. So there is clearly a distinction between the psion and other arcane classes that are already in the game, whether or not you choose to accept it.

Simply saying "Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Psions are all in the same category! So Psion needs to be in the game!" is not an argument. It's not one WotC takes seriously, otherwise they'd already be in 5E, or at least being developed.

If you can't find some reasoning beyond that for why psion should be a class as opposed to subclasses, that's very likely not going to change.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, they clearly are not enough.

WotC doesn't think they are, as there isn't one in 5E now, and they've stopped developing one.

They have not abandoned the Psion.

Simply saying "Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Psions are all in the same category! So Psion needs to be in the game!" is not an argument.

It's certainly not my argument. Cool Strawman dude.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

It's certainly not my argument. Cool Strawman dude.

Wtf is your argument then?

 

[Maxperson]

Wtf is your argument then?

I've said it straight up to you multiple times. It's not my fault if you don't believe me. I'm saying that your argument for altering the Psion to be fundamentally different than D&D has set up applies to the other casters as well. If you can fundamentally alter one, you can fundamentally alter them all.

Go with what I say, not whatever strange things your mind cooks up for me to "have meant."

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I've said it straight up to you multiple times. It's not my fault if you don't believe me. I'm saying that your argument for altering the Psion to be fundamentally different than D&D has set up applies to the other casters as well. If you can fundamentally alter one, you can fundamentally alter them all.

Go with what I say, not some whatever strange things your mind cooks up for me to "have meant."

I haven't altered anything the psion at all. WotC has.

The psion is not in 5E. There are currently no UA being developed for psion classes anymore, and although Crawford has said they haven't entirely given up on a psion class, it's pretty clear by recent releases the focus is on psion subclasses.

I'm not even making an argument, my original pont was that this thread is built entirely from the "argument from tradition" logic fallacy.

That fallacy does not apply to the other arcane classes, as WotC has created rules for them and determined they have a place in 5E. They have not made that same determination for the psion, otherwise we would be getting UA for a psion class, not subclasses.

Have I addressed your words thoroughly enough now?

 

[Maxperson]

I haven't altered anything the psion at all. WotC has.

That's false. WotC made the Psion a pure caster in 3e and 4e(I believe). That makes them pure casters in all editions they have been in. YOU are changing them from what TSR and WotC have chosen to make them.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Well, from my perspective, it was - WotC puts out a pretty well received UA on psionics. Look at the longer threads, and the first five pages or so are all pretty positive. Then a few folks came in and insisted that we MUST have a full psion class or nothing. And, at the end of the day, there is no budging that position.

So, what you are seeing now is the chipping away at that echo chamber tower of folks who are insisting that nothing else but a full psionics class will do and anything else is a complete failure.

There is one other aspect of the death of the Mystic class that we do not have access to here at all. The second version of the Mystic class stated that once if was revised and more robust, it would be made available to legally playtest it in Adventurers League play. Yet when the third version of the class was released, it was still not legal to playtest in AL games. so in addition to feedback we are aware of, whatever happened with the class that kept it from this additional playtest avenue probably also had a hand in it being killed off.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Psychic powers and magic, as separate systems, can be found together in the Marvel and DC universes. I suspect one could find the same thing in pulps such as Doc Savage.

If we define psychic powers as uncanny abilities that depend upon the internal power of the individual and not on external sources such as gods, spirits, incantations, rituals, or objects then they can be found in the European tradition:

Galadriel's ability to read minds in The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien's inspiration here was Ayesha in H Rider Haggard's She.
Mesmerism or animal magnetism
The evil eye
Second sight

It could also be argued that by the definition above the powers of gods and other non-human entities such as fairies are psychic.