Peraion Graufalke
First Post
Did anyone else catch this little tidbit?
More classes coming our way, perhaps?
More classes coming our way, perhaps?
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Heroes of Virtue article
- Thread starter Nemesis Destiny
- Start date
Did anyone else catch this little tidbit?
More classes coming our way, perhaps?
We've known about Bladesinger for a while. It's in the Neverwinter book coming out.
Giant-Slayer? A Sub-Subclass? Or is that a Sub-Sub-Subclass? I lost count.
Whoah, the Guardian is hella-sweet and very powerful for a defender. The level 10 ability is only good for a Macguffin but the rest is amazingly sweet. It's especially good if you have a glass cannon working along side a tough defender.
Heck, the Guardian's Counter is amazing for any non-defender in melee. It triggers marks and gives you an attack? Tremendous! I know what my Barbarian is getting next!
Plus, it has EXACTLY the flavor I've been looking for with two of my characters.
Heck, the Guardian's Counter is amazing for any non-defender in melee. It triggers marks and gives you an attack? Tremendous! I know what my Barbarian is getting next!
Plus, it has EXACTLY the flavor I've been looking for with two of my characters.
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GMforPowergamers
Legend
Maybe a giant slayer subclass in heroes of fey wild...
I love the Guardian. I agree the level 10 is going to be problematic... this is a crunch article, I really don't think phrases such as "generally speaking" should appear anywhere in it. Let's be clear when it comes to rules, please.
But I love their level 1 Encounter! Being able to negate an attack at level 1 once per encounter is a pretty sweet deal for a Defender.
I might take Guardian on my level 19 Artificer/Swordmage. I think I can convince the DM that our resident lazylord, who never makes an attack, qualifies to be his defended person, haha.
Overall, I loved this article. I'm glad to see that Order Adept/Animal Master were apparently on the extreme opposite ends of balance; what we've seen in the last two articles is much more where I expect the level of power to be. I'm a little disappointed by the Hospitaler's Encounter using Wisdom solely. I wish they'd stay away from limiting options to certain classes, power types, or ability scores. I don't want themes to favor certain classes, mainly because themes are at their most interesting when they're used to make unexpected combinations.
Cleric/Hospitaler is boring. Warlock/Hospitaler is an intriguing concept, but one you're unlikely to see for solely mechanical reasons. Overall, though, this is a minor quibble of mine. Loved what I saw in this article, and excited to see the remaining themes.
But I love their level 1 Encounter! Being able to negate an attack at level 1 once per encounter is a pretty sweet deal for a Defender.
I might take Guardian on my level 19 Artificer/Swordmage. I think I can convince the DM that our resident lazylord, who never makes an attack, qualifies to be his defended person, haha.
Overall, I loved this article. I'm glad to see that Order Adept/Animal Master were apparently on the extreme opposite ends of balance; what we've seen in the last two articles is much more where I expect the level of power to be. I'm a little disappointed by the Hospitaler's Encounter using Wisdom solely. I wish they'd stay away from limiting options to certain classes, power types, or ability scores. I don't want themes to favor certain classes, mainly because themes are at their most interesting when they're used to make unexpected combinations.
Cleric/Hospitaler is boring. Warlock/Hospitaler is an intriguing concept, but one you're unlikely to see for solely mechanical reasons. Overall, though, this is a minor quibble of mine. Loved what I saw in this article, and excited to see the remaining themes.
Peraion Graufalke
First Post
Yeah, I hadn't heard anything about the Bladesinger for a while, so I took that mention to be a confirmation that it hasn't been scrapped.
I can totally see the Giant-Slayer as a Barbarian subclass. Or yet another Ranger, only with a really big axe this time.
Or in LFR where you can have a lower-level companion with you. I think it's intended for NPC use but who knows. It's extremely good if you can use it on other party members.
The Chevalier's pretty fun -- though I don't like the static power bonus at level 10, if only because players will forget it's a power bonus and try to stack it (a problem with power bonuses, particularly on things that aren't powers).
The Guardian e1 is hella strong; depending on interpretation you might be able to see the attack roll (or at least the targetted defense) before choosing to use the power. I could see even playing this with a striker with a good basic attack (Avenger, for instance), as immediate action attack = power and the rest is gravy.
Regarding the guarding 10, I think if you look at the examples, it is intended to be used with a PC; they're just trying to avoid having people use it with the defender. Using it on a ranged/area PC (whose overall power might equal your own, but whose -melee- power does not) seems to be the intent; note: "You might be partnered with a wizard or a cleric, sworn to accompany your charge on his or her travels and guard him or her with your very life". Mind, I'd have preferred if they said "your charge must not be a defender or melee striker" or something else less wishy washy then the whole "melee skills equal your own" thing.
Hospitaler: Solid. L5 is rp, l10 is more healing. More healing is good. At l11, you're healing [surgeless] 10+2*wis per encounter. Also, the Ue6 is something people might actually take -- as mobility options are thin on the ground for the defenders and leaders who are most likely to take this theme.
Noble: yeah, kinda weak. The ally move ability is fun, but I prefer ally moves as minor actions, as that means you can move too. But the level 5 and 10 features are weak; a skill bonus and an item. OTOH, the U2 is fantastic (use intimidate instead of bluff or diplomacy every encounter? Yes, please, says the noble half-orc negotiator. ) The U10 is also amazing for a high initiative character, as you get to let another party member completely ignore his or her initiative check every encounter and use yours instead (and if they roll well, you boost someone else instead). So oddly, it's got some of the few theme utilities I might actually take.
The Guardian e1 is hella strong; depending on interpretation you might be able to see the attack roll (or at least the targetted defense) before choosing to use the power. I could see even playing this with a striker with a good basic attack (Avenger, for instance), as immediate action attack = power and the rest is gravy.
Regarding the guarding 10, I think if you look at the examples, it is intended to be used with a PC; they're just trying to avoid having people use it with the defender. Using it on a ranged/area PC (whose overall power might equal your own, but whose -melee- power does not) seems to be the intent; note: "You might be partnered with a wizard or a cleric, sworn to accompany your charge on his or her travels and guard him or her with your very life". Mind, I'd have preferred if they said "your charge must not be a defender or melee striker" or something else less wishy washy then the whole "melee skills equal your own" thing.
Hospitaler: Solid. L5 is rp, l10 is more healing. More healing is good. At l11, you're healing [surgeless] 10+2*wis per encounter. Also, the Ue6 is something people might actually take -- as mobility options are thin on the ground for the defenders and leaders who are most likely to take this theme.
Noble: yeah, kinda weak. The ally move ability is fun, but I prefer ally moves as minor actions, as that means you can move too. But the level 5 and 10 features are weak; a skill bonus and an item. OTOH, the U2 is fantastic (use intimidate instead of bluff or diplomacy every encounter? Yes, please, says the noble half-orc negotiator. ) The U10 is also amazing for a high initiative character, as you get to let another party member completely ignore his or her initiative check every encounter and use yours instead (and if they roll well, you boost someone else instead). So oddly, it's got some of the few theme utilities I might actually take.
phoffman
Explorer
My opinion,
I feel that its important that at level 1, you should be able to easily demonstrate some ability that defines that you have this theme.
Chevalier is really weak compared to other themes. You don't have to have a theme to adhere to a code of honor. It doesn't go out of its way to allow you to more easily purchase mounts. The granted encounter power is underpowered. The optional encounter powers are pretty weak compared to the other options. Power bonuses from non-powers are often incorrectly applied during game. I can see this leading to some confusions especially with the saving throws. Because the number of feats you need to make mounts work if you not a Knight this theme should say: Prerequisite, Knight.
You could fix it by giving out the feat "Mounted Combat" or allow the player a discount on mount purchases. Fix Valiant Charge by making the charge do an additional [w].
Guardian definitely has a niche I like the first level granted power because there aren't many abilities that can replicate this effect. When you use it you will feel like you are "guarding" Yet again power bonuses from non power sources will often be mis applied (likely perception in this case). The level 10 ability has a lot of role playing potential. The optional powers seem to need work, but "Watch Out!" is pretty good.
Hospitaler looks pretty good for adding more leader role to an existing leader, as long as wisdom is your primary statistic. I could see this working well for an Avenger too. The optional powers appear to have a good power level with existing powers. This theme would be good for a few classes.
Noble doesn't really feel like it would play like the nobility that it is based on. The shifting power that the power grants seems to be rather underpowered, this power should be close burst 5 at minimum, to make up for its rather limited abilities, and targeting only one or two allies, (even as a move power) or keep the burst 3 and let it affect all allies. The level 5 ability is horrible and uninspiring, free items. Not to mention that this is something that the Noble will grow out of, so its not even an ability that they get to keep using as they progress through their campaign. The level 10 skill bonuses are only as good as other theme's level 5 skill bonuses. The optional powers are easily replicated through other abilities that perform similarly, so there would be little incentive to take them.
You can't really fix this theme easily, probably best to go back to the drawing board on this one.
I feel that its important that at level 1, you should be able to easily demonstrate some ability that defines that you have this theme.
Chevalier is really weak compared to other themes. You don't have to have a theme to adhere to a code of honor. It doesn't go out of its way to allow you to more easily purchase mounts. The granted encounter power is underpowered. The optional encounter powers are pretty weak compared to the other options. Power bonuses from non-powers are often incorrectly applied during game. I can see this leading to some confusions especially with the saving throws. Because the number of feats you need to make mounts work if you not a Knight this theme should say: Prerequisite, Knight.
You could fix it by giving out the feat "Mounted Combat" or allow the player a discount on mount purchases. Fix Valiant Charge by making the charge do an additional [w].
Guardian definitely has a niche I like the first level granted power because there aren't many abilities that can replicate this effect. When you use it you will feel like you are "guarding" Yet again power bonuses from non power sources will often be mis applied (likely perception in this case). The level 10 ability has a lot of role playing potential. The optional powers seem to need work, but "Watch Out!" is pretty good.
Hospitaler looks pretty good for adding more leader role to an existing leader, as long as wisdom is your primary statistic. I could see this working well for an Avenger too. The optional powers appear to have a good power level with existing powers. This theme would be good for a few classes.
Noble doesn't really feel like it would play like the nobility that it is based on. The shifting power that the power grants seems to be rather underpowered, this power should be close burst 5 at minimum, to make up for its rather limited abilities, and targeting only one or two allies, (even as a move power) or keep the burst 3 and let it affect all allies. The level 5 ability is horrible and uninspiring, free items. Not to mention that this is something that the Noble will grow out of, so its not even an ability that they get to keep using as they progress through their campaign. The level 10 skill bonuses are only as good as other theme's level 5 skill bonuses. The optional powers are easily replicated through other abilities that perform similarly, so there would be little incentive to take them.
You can't really fix this theme easily, probably best to go back to the drawing board on this one.
IanB
First Post
Are themes retrainable? I don't think that's something I'd allow any more than I'd allow race or class to be retrained, were I designing it.
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