'Heroic' games and the setting of tone in games

[LostSoul]

Let me start off by saying that I think that your PCs are heroic. I don't think it's my type/style of game, but that doesn't mean anything (especially in this discussion) .

LostSoul, I don't expect my players to be heroic. If I give the players the option between saving the innocent virgin or selling her body to the death cult, and they pick saving the girl, that doesn't make them any more heroic than a child reading a Choose Your Own Adventure novel. There aren't any real heroics involved.

That made me think - are the players actually acting heroic if they pick heroic deeds over selfish or evil ones? I can see the argument there. If the winning quarterback in a football game can be heroic - can the same apply for role-playing games? Who knows. Nothing's at stake here, but the players are still making that choice. Hmm. Interesting question. I'm probably off my rocker.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I run a heroic game because that's what I like to DM. Those are the kinds of stories I like to help create. I don't particularly care for statting up good guys to get beaten down, or to adjudicate how many child sacrifices it might take to complete a pact with Orcus. I want to see Good trouncing Evil, so that's the game I run.

Hear hear.

I have no problem with others running other games, but that's what I enjoy running.

I'm not certain I don't have a problem with other people running "other" games. One of the most uncomfortable gaming experiences of my life was when I was running an off the cuff dungeon hack and a new player decided to bring in an elf who he said was attacted to orcish women and was always asking "are there any orcish women in this dungeon room." I had no desire to DM a rape scene and none of the other players wanted any part of it either. Consequently, there were no orcish women in the dungeon and the campaign folded in the next session as everyone else made excuses not to play with the pervert.

Judgemental? Maybe. But this is our free time and entertainment. Why should we spend it being creeped out and horrified because someone has decided to try "simulating" rape or child molestation? (And if someone is neither creeped out nor horrified by that prospect, I think there's something wrong with them).

I enforce it by telling the players before the game starts that I'm going to be running a heroic game. Players who don't understand what this means can be taught. Players who decide to play against my wishes with regards to this are booted.

For my part, I just make it clear at the outset that making certain choices will result in your character becoming an NPC.

So, to answer LostSoul's question, for the characters, there is always choice--and I'll push the characters and the players in that regard as well. They will face moral dilemmas and temptation (note that these aren't the same thing--a dilemma is when it seems that either choice will have a negative outcome; temptation is when a morally wrong choice seems like it will have a positive outcome). Evil NPCs--and sometimes even neutral NPCs--will offer them their goals or steps towards their goals at a cost to their souls (sometimes in the form of obligations incurred, sometimes it's inherent in the offer (a "worship me and I will give you the world" offer would fall into that category--so would a "summon me and I'll kidnap the witch queen's children so that she will have to come into your trap" offer), and sometimes in the form of deception (where the cost of the choice is hidden from the character)). And characters are free to react to those choices however the players see fit. But, if they do decide to fall, they're only going to be PCs for a short time. If I were Anakin's DM, butchering the sandpeople wouldn't place him as an NPC. I might even let him stay a PC after killing Mace and pledging fealty to the Emperor. There's a remote possibility that I might let him stay a PC as he annihilated the jedi school. But, by the time the emperor fitted him for his helmet, he'd definitely be an NPC and the player could bring in a new character or find another campaign.

Or if that's not feasible, I merely shut the game down and let another pick up the DMing reins.It should be noted that one can run a heroic campaign in a very deep world as well. The fact that the PCs are "heroes" doesn't make the game world "a rose colored world" unless the DM makes it so. I, personally, do not. I have oppressive Lawful Good churches and prostitutes and drug abuse and rape etc. etc. The point of a heroic campaign is that the PCs will oppose these things, rather than support them. That the PCs will, at heart, be good people, people who will fight for their convictions. The world can be as dark as dark gets. The PCs, on the other hand, will not be.

Well said.

My games are pretty much the same way (except for the bit about oppressive lawful good churches; evil people--and some neutral people who are drawn to evil (I don't put much stock in the law/chaos axis)--will often see lawful good churches as oppressive, but if they actually are objectively oppressive, then they're not lawful good. They'd (at best) be lawful neutral churches following a lawful good deity).