Heward's Handy Haversacks in Haversacks

[UltimaGabe]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't there an entry in the FAQ that states that putting a Bag of Holding into another Bag of Holding is the same as putting a Portable Hole into a Bag of Holding?

 

[Jhulae]

Handy Haversack: A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 2,000 gp;Weight 5 lb.

Bag of Holding: This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions


Rope Trick
Transmutation
.....Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

"KA BOUM"

But, by this reading, the HHH (and Bag of Holding) aren't extradimensional spaces. They're nondimensional spaces. So, you're not putting an extradimensional space into another, because they don't exist outside of the current dimension.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, by this reading, the HHH (and Bag of Holding) aren't extradimensional spaces. They're nondimensional spaces. So, you're not putting an extradimensional space into another, because they don't exist outside of the current dimension.

Now read the Portable Hole description, and explain again how non-dimensional and extra-dimensional mean different things...

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

Well, obviously one of the places is wrong. Either the bag is indeed extradimensional, as the portable hole rule states, or it's nondimensional and the extradimensional explosion wouldn't apply to it.

I'm pretty sure that they did indeed mean to say the bag of holding was extradimensional, but that's not what's in print. It's fairly lousy editing/proofing, honestly.

And, a while back (under 3.0) our gaming group actually wrote Skip, because we thought you couldn't take the HHH into a Rope Trick. Back then, Skip wrote back to us that the Rope Trick was actually creating a doorway to a pocket dimension, not an 'extradimensional space', and so one could take the HHH, bag of holding, whatever safely into it. Obviously, that's not the case in 3.5 anymore.

Yet, now there are nondimensional spaces that may or may not be extradimensional depending on where you read.

 

[Khaalis]

Just to throw in my $0.01 worth on this, it is obvious that the rules lack when it comes to this scenario. Personally I would use my own common sense as the DM and what makes sense to the game world. In most cases, I do not allow extradimensional spaces within extradimension spaces. However there are some cases where the "implied idea" of the scenario is to create not an extradimensional space but a pocket dimension, such as Rope Trick, Mord's Magnificent Mansion, etc. Its silly to have a place like this created that people have to leave their gear outside for fear of effects. With that said, what I have done in the past with the extra-in-extra space scenarios is that it destroys all items involved and stored and "implodes" creating an uncontrolled sphere of anihilation in their place. Can be a very interesting event.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, obviously one of the places is wrong. Either the bag is indeed extradimensional, as the portable hole rule states, or it's nondimensional and the extradimensional explosion wouldn't apply to it.

I meant the fact that the portable hole's space is described as extradimensional and as nondimensional in the same block of text...

-Hyp.

 

[SBMC]

I just recently discovered a player in my campaign had been keeping his HHH in another HHH. I immediately told him he couldn't do that any more because he'd suffer total protonic inversion or whatever, but he pointed out that the only mention in the rules involves bags of holding in portable holes (or vice versa).

I'm still not going to allow it, but is there any mention in the rules I'm missing to disallow this?

We have always gone with the rule: "no non dimensional space can be placed inside another without bad things happening." and "If it is a non dimensional space without a specific explanation it defaults to be a bag of holding equivilent".

I know this since I ended up in a bad place once...thanks to a silly little gnome!

Regardless read the discription of the HHH in the DMG - if you read it as is; without any inferences; the two outer pockets ARE BAGS OF HOLDING! The description outright does nto say the central one is as well...but lets be reasonable here...

Thus the players point is indeed lost. - send him to the astral plane!

------------------

I could have sworn I saw this covered somewhere in the DMG besides the Wondrous item descriptions of the Portable Hole and Bags of Holing...pehaps I am wrong.

 

[tensen]

So, for the price of 4,000 gp they have an item that deals 10d6 and sucks anything in a 30ft radius to another plane, and a high reflex save for another 30ft? I'd be buying every HHH I ran into.

Yes. just have someone that is a really good basketball player. Tie one up really tight into a ball. And shoot for the opening. Man that'll take out some big bad someplace. Just make sure not to aim too close to the treasure.

 

[ARandomGod]

I'm still not going to allow it, but is there any mention in the rules I'm missing to disallow this?

By RAW it'll work. Of course, by GM Fiat, it won't necessarily work.

 

[diaglo]

so how does the PC know that he was safe to place one haversack inside the other?



does the PC also have knowledge of how every single spell works in the PHB just b/c his player has access to it?


without having done or seen this done or having someone explain how it works... i think the PC should've been more cautious.

lets see what happens when we mix acids and bases in real life without taking chemistry or having someone tell us of the dangers...

ammonia and bleach for example are still a hazard when mixed. do a search on the web for other household chemicals that cause death or injury...


treat this in a similar fashion. without knowledge .... or spellcraft in this case... the PC should be cautious when mixing or playing with magic.