Hey, so you know this "space marine" thing?

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Seen the gun culture in the USA? Very similar dynamic going on.

Frankly, the business model for software is somewhat screwed already. My game group includes computer industry professionals...who pirate other people's software.

But here's the thing: if software were sold rather than licensed, you'd pay more up front, but since the transfer of ownership would be total, many of the security measures that get discussed would not be as desired by IP creators. Still, I don't see that happening, as explained before.

The thing is, IP protection is still effective at increasing the wealth of IP creators, which is a good thing since it encourages others to create IP. Those protections make people feel like the risks and investments in creating IP have a chance at being rewarded. To date, nobody has really come up with a better model. Tweaks, to improve it, yes, but nothing to replace it.

(Of course, if people simply played by the rules, consumer costs would fall...but you know what they say about rotten apples.)

Mostly I am replying to this paragraph:

The thing is, IP protection is still effective at increasing the wealth of IP creators, which is a good thing since it encourages others to create IP. Those protections make people feel like the risks and investments in creating IP have a chance at being rewarded. To date, nobody has really come up with a better model. Tweaks, to improve it, yes, but nothing to replace it.

Two notable tweeks were the Sunny Bono Copyright Extension Act and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. I understand both to be controversial, and to be viewed as providing a disproportionate benefit to the copyright holders relative to the benefits accrued by society as a whole.

In the statement that "increasing the weath of IP creators" is a "good" thing", since it "encourages others to create IP", I can find problems in the details.

Normally, increasing weath and encouraging the creation of IP should be good outcomes. Looking to the example of the Copyright Extension Act, I don't doubt the extension increased the wealth of current IP holders. However, that wealth overall was increased doesn't seem to necessarily follow. Many business opportunities which would have been enabled by not extending copyright were quashed. Additionaly, the effect to encourage new IP seems rather small.

In the details, in considering IP law and policy, I ask:

*) Does the law or policy increase the wealth of a few (e.g., current copyright holders), or of many (new potential IP creators, business partners of the IP creators)? Does the law or policy create wealth by increasing prices or by creating more product and more sales?

*) Does the law or policy effect a net increate in IP? There are at least these contrary trends which must be taken into account: Restrictions to existing IP. Refocusing resources on enforcement as opposed to IP creation. (This includes loss of utility due to protection mechanisms.) Reduction in availability due to price increases.

*) Does the law or policy encourage the use of new ideas, or is there a stifling effect?

Thx!

TomB
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Normally, increasing weath and encouraging the creation of IP should be good outcomes. Looking to the example of the Copyright Extension Act, I don't doubt the extension increased the wealth of current IP holders. However, that wealth overall was increased doesn't seem to necessarily follow. Many business opportunities which would have been enabled by not extending copyright were quashed. Additionaly, the effect to encourage new IP seems rather small.
A fundamental tenet of lassaiz faire capitalism is that what is good for business is good for society. Now, there are a host of obvious problems with that, but the underlying principle holds as far as any economic study you can name is concerned.

While it is possible that societal wealth would increase faster with fewer IP protections- between modern style protections and the "self-help" that ruled before- it hasn't been shown to work out in any of the (admittedly) very few countries in which such attempts have been made. Even China has had to use Western-style IP protection to help out their own IP creators...while turning a blind eye towards infringements against foreign IP holders. The Chinese and only the Chinese are better off.

Does the law or policy increase the wealth of a few (e.g., current copyright holders), or of many (new potential IP creators, business partners of the IP creators)? Does the law or policy create wealth by increasing prices or by creating more product and more sales?

The economic data of the effects of modern IP protection are quite clear: it builds the wealth of IP creators; it builds the wealth of necessary partners in delivering the product to market; it expands the job market. How it does so- by increased prices or increased sales- varies from product to product.

Because of those protections, the world has seen an expansion in IP creation that has only accelerated. Again, looking at China: their protective regime is modeled after the West, at least in structure. They just enforce it selectively. But the existence of those laws has resulted in an explosion in the Chinese economy.

Does the law or policy effect a net increate in IP? There are at least these contrary trends which must be taken into account: Restrictions to existing IP. Refocusing resources on enforcement as opposed to IP creation. (This includes loss of utility due to protection mechanisms.) Reduction in availability due to price increases.

Again, there is no economic data that indicates anything but a boom in IP in those countries adopting modern Western-style IP laws.

Enforcement expenditures only exist because people don't respect the rules of society, and are a cost for any business. The number one cost for retailers combatting "shrinkage"- "theft" to Joe Public- is monitoring employees.

As for price increases affecting availability? That's capitalism. Just because something is on the market doesn't mean I have a right to own it, just the option of meeting the seller's asking price. I'd love to own a Somogyi acoustic guitar, but I don't have the $20,000 on hand to buy a basic, no-frills one, much less one with any of the available options. Until I make considerably more money, I'll have to satisfy myself with lesser (though still nice) guitars that are out there.

Does the law or policy encourage the use of new ideas, or is there a stifling effect?
There will always be a stifling effect with any IP protection- indeed, the protection of any property right. The real question is which is greater- the benefit or the stifling?

My neighbor might be better off if he could plant zucchini on my lawn, but my property rights "stifle" his ability to do so. Society has deemed that there is no overwhelming need to encourage private zucchini gardens.

OTOH, if oil were found below my land, its a different story. If it were found to be a significant amount, there WILL be an incursion onto my land by the oil company, either above or below ground, or possibly both. And, depending on what state I'm in (laws vary) and the precise nature of what my deed of sale said when I purchased the land, I may not have much say in the matter. I might not even get an oil & gas royalty. And that might even result in my being effectively evicted from my land as the noisy, smelly, dangerous oil derrick goes up in my back yard.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Normally, increasing weath and encouraging the creation of IP should be good outcomes. Looking to the example of the Copyright Extension Act, I don't doubt the extension increased the wealth of current IP holders. However, that wealth overall was increased doesn't seem to necessarily follow.

Well, in part that depends on what you consider "wealth". As economic events in the not-too-distant past have shown us, it is possible to have illusory wealth - a big bank account that disappears in a puff of accounting if anyone looks at it too closely.

This is then complicated by the fact that the value of IP is incredibly variable. Mickey Mouse can go in and out of style, so that the value of his IP can rise and fall over time.

How difficult is it, then, to know what scheme will really maximize actual wealth? What's better: Allowing others to use the image of Mickey Mouse, or forcing them to come up with new images? Folks can make use of older, established IP at lower risk, and that's inviting. But, if older IP had become available, would we ever have seen, say, "The Incredibles", or would we instead have seen another knock-off Goofy animated feature? We have to do a whole lot of hypothesizing in order to come up with an answer, and we cannot test our "what if" models to be sure.

Which, in the end, says to me, "Anyone who claims to *KNOW* is trying to sell you something."
 

dm4hire

Explorer
Something I find funny with us mentioning Mickey, the champion rodent of copyright extensions, is that he's not the longest running copyrighted character. A more renowned Disney icon that holds that title would be Peter Pan, though his extensions I think should be made exclusive in that all profits from his perpetuity is to benefit the hospital Barrie bequeathed his rights to upon his death. Granted if Disney wanted to do the same for Mickey I'd have no problem with them getting a permanent copyright or continuing to extend their rights.
 


avalkauskas

Explorer
As a gamer I totally understand GW's claim, I do associate the term with WH40k... however anyone not in the gaming space, and into sci-fi movies and books, looking at it from their perspective, it would seem preposterous to TM such a phrase. From the population demographics, I'd say the 99% should win out over the 1% (ahem, 1% would be the gamers).
 

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