"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

[Tigh]

the rise of dramatic structure and plot protection in D&D corresponded with the rise of HF and decline of S&S in publishing.

I can agree with this.


Tigh

 

[Doug McCrae]

I don't see any rules for story in 3e. The less killable 4e PCs do support story. When a protagonist dies unexpectedly that's normally held to be unsatisfying.

One could argue that the level track has always been a sort of story. And that the rules for strongholds in old school D&D, probably inspired by Conan, actually support a Conan-esque life story of adventure->politics more than the flat progression of later editions.

 

[Ariosto]

I was seriously disappointed when I found out 4E's Action Points were limited to 'take an extra turn,' rather than providing more outcome or narrative control.

Still, can't you say, "You've come a long way, baby"?

 

[Doug McCrae]

Action points are a resource you expend to help your playing piece win, in terms of story control they are no different than a spell, potion or scroll.

A lot less powerful than those old scrolls of protection from X Gary used to place in his dungeons, when the BBEG was an X.

 

[jdrakeh]

3 and 5-7 definitely apply to the Cugel the Clever stories mind you. Definitely not 1 though, Vance's heroes are wordy and super-civilized.

Er. . . in Eyes of the Overworld, Cugel tries to rape a woman in a fairly barbaric act of revenge. Likewise, he lies, steals, and cajoles himself back home. He may use big words, but he's far from civilized.

 

[Ariosto]

Yeah, 4E is still a bit conflicted between the "game" aspect and the "simulating fantasy fiction" aspect. But at least the latter is addressed quite a bit, and with slightly more sophisticated tools for the DM than just hoping for the best and then "fudging" rolls. If there's a one in a thousand chance of a scenario turning out the wrong way and it's played ten thousand times, then odds are it's going to go south at least once.

 

[Ariosto]

If memory serves, Cugel also murders some utterly hapless creatures in revenge for a harmless (except to his dignity for a moment) practical joke.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Meh, A lot of words which seem to boil down to "I think modern D&D is about player 'entitlement', so I've decided to wrap my argument in bad literary criticism and inappropriate religosity.

Damn, thats so much shorter than my post. And says it better, too.

Unless it's Tracy Hickman's version of D&D.

Hey, i´ve already wondered when an old-schooler would give Dragonlance a kick. Its the "omg they turned D&D into a story-based game" scapegoat number one. Well done.

 

[Hairfoot]

There's a lot to be said for improving the story element of the game by improving PC survivability, but 4E turns many of us off because it does so by elevating characters to a superhero level of superiority.

Even in a game world which is tilted in the player's favour, I like my PC's survival to be the result of some ingenuity on my part and some Indiana Jones-style heroism by the character. Regardless of the world style (S&S, HF, EF etc), this was the formula of D&D all the way up to 3.5 core.

A 4E campaign, OTOH, assumes a party of X-Men, far superior to the commoners, cleaving through hordes of foes and threatened only by the strongest of enemies. I cannot identify with such characters, and they seem more like playing pieces than protagonists I want to weave a story with.

Whether or not that level of power is appealing to an individual player, it's a big leap from anything previous incarnations of the system assumed as the norm.

 

[Dire Bare]

That may be how you describe "RPGs", but that is not how Gygax described D&D in its manuals.

Well, yes . . . that's how I describe RPGs. I didn't add an "IMO" because it felt redundant.

OD&D by its own description offers methods for setting up and refereeing "wargames campaigns".

By 1978, the distinction of "role playing campaign" was established. Yet still there is no mention of "storytelling" in the Players Handbook description of the game.

D&D has been evolving for over 30 years, I don't care what any of the rulebooks from the '70s say about "storytelling" vs. "it's just a game". Like many seminal inventions, D&D has moved way beyond the initial ideas and intentions of its creators, Gygax and Arneson.

Besides, (not that it matters) did Gary ever claim D&D was *not* art and/or literature? I know he wasn't a fan of the White Wolf storyteller games (or, I think I remember this).

That, however, was something after and outside the actual process of playing the game. To call something with such a posterior position the "heart" of the affair is a most curious usage!

Individual D&D games can have varying degrees of storytelling vs gaming, but if you look at the D&D experience as a whole, there is a strong storytelling element.

IMO!