Hide from Undead advice and limits?

[LordVyreth]

My players will be involved in raiding an undead stronghold. They will certainly be using this spell to help sneak in, and I needed to know tactics for dealing with it and what exactly it has priority over. I already know that it blocks even blindsight, lifesense, and other supernatural senses that undead tend to use, but what about spells? If a lich or vampire had true seeing, for example, would it penetrate the spell? What about a simple invisibility purge or see invisible? Do undead get the Spot check to be aware of the creature's presence, like normal invisibility grants? What about water displacement?

 

[Mulkhoran]

Hide from Undead is a bit of a tough one, because of the way it's put together. The Will save and negation of (Ex) and (Su) abilities that would normally allow you to detect invisible creatures puts some spells in question.

For my part, I would say that Invisibility Purge or See Invisibility wouldn't work, simply because the targets aren't invisible, per se. This seems to jibe with the intent of the spell. True Seeing, however, should definitely penetrate it, since a 1st level Clr spell shouldn't be trumping one of such power. These are all kind of personal definitions, though.

From a strict rules standpoint, however, I'd say it does what it says: If the intelligent undead fails the Will save, it can't see them, spells notwithstanding.

Just my opinion....

 

[Lamoni]

True Seeing[/i], however, should definitely penetrate it, since a 1st level Clr spell shouldn't be trumping one of such power. These are all kind of personal definitions, though.

From a strict rules standpoint, however, I'd say it does what it says: If the intelligent undead fails the Will save, it can't see them, spells notwithstanding.

I say that true seeing shouldn't penetrate it... both from a rules perspective and from my personal definition. The way to defeat a hide from undead spell is to make the save. But, even if they don't make the save, it doesn't mean that the undead are going to be killed, just that they won't be killing the PC's. Hide spells are purely defensive non-combative spells and so just because true seeing is 5th level, doesn't mean it should work against it. true seeing won't lose its usefulness if there are a few things out there that it won't work against. If the PC's want to attack the undead, that automatically ends the spell. That is a big enough drawback to keep it 1st level.

just my two cents...

 

[LordVyreth]

Ah, so the Will save does totally negate the spell's effects for the undead? I was confused about this when I initially read the spell.

So, what about water displacement? The spell does say undead can be aware of those effected by the spell if they have a reason to think the creature is there, I believe. So an alarm spell would theoretically give them awareness, righ? Would displacement fit in this category or not?

And what about undead tactics? If you were an intelligent undead, how would you counter this spell?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I don't think that True Seeing, See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge would work at all, since they can penetrate Illusion effects, like Invisibilty which is an Illusion(Glamer) spell, but Hide from Undead is an Abjuration spell.
If an affected intelligent undead has a reason to believe that there are some "invisible" guys around, he could use an area attack an area Dispel Magic, he could alarm other undead, run away, try to spot them.
I think there are more possibilities, but that's it for the moment.

 

[LordVyreth]

Hmm, any other suggestions? I'd like as many opinions a possible, since the game will be today and the issue might come up.