Hierophant - worth losing spell progression?

[mikebr99]

Yeah, straight cleric. Heh, I didn't realize it was so rare. I was considering Contemplative (from DotF) but wanted to keep advancing my turn undead level. And the prestige domains weren't worth it for me.

I commend you!

You are a leader among men.


There are PrCs that'll allow continued turning advancement however... Exorcist... Warpriest... blah of Pelor...

Prestige domains weren't worth it because your DM didn't allow Mysticism or Celerity?


Mike

 

[Shadeus]

I commend you!

You are a leader among men.


There are PrCs that'll allow continued turning advancement however... Exorcist... Warpriest... blah of Pelor...

Prestige domains weren't worth it because your DM didn't allow Mysticism or Celerity?


Mike

Heh, I checked out both of those PrCs. Exorcist had the nasty Knowledge (planes) requirement that I wasn't too keen on, but otherwise a very good class. War Priest didn't fit the character very well. He worships a god of weather and elements. And I didn't like losing the spell-casting progression (which is why I was worried about Hierophant).

And you pretty much read my mind. I couldn't convince my DM that Celerity would be a good domain for a god that has Travel as one of its domain. I still maintain he's being difficult, but I digress...

Also, in this homebrew, the DM gives clerics other powers at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 that are much better than domain abilities. In return, we have to give up the domain power (but still have the restriction of choosing a domain spell). Kind of sucked because I have Travel and Sun as his domains.

 

[schnee]

It seems really weak when you consider an Archmage gets full progression and only gives up a few spell slots along the way. I wonder if the Heirophant could be 'fixed' by adding spellcasting progression at 2nd and 4th level... they still get 9th level spells, but lose out on a HECK of a lot of slots in comparison. The fact that nobody ever seems to think it worthwhile to take all 5 levels (non-Epic I mean) means something's definitely wrong...

 

[Dthamilaye]

I wouldn't think it impossible for the DM to change Hierophant to similar system that Archmage uses. Ie, lose slots for every ability, but keep getting new spell casting levels.

Would there be some bad balance issues that I don't see?

 

[Malcer]

I wouldn't think it impossible for the DM to change Hierophant to similar system that Archmage uses. Ie, lose slots for every ability, but keep getting new spell casting levels.

Would there be some bad balance issues that I don't see?

I think Hierophant and Archmage are perfectly balanced because they hit both respective classes where it hurts. (Well, in order to get cool new abilities of course!)

I wouldn't pause to take some Hierophant levels if I continued in spell progression and only had to sacrfice a slot or two. But a wizard character has fewer spell slots and spending one of them hurts a lot. And most of them are higher level slots, which hurts even more.

No, I don't think that one should change that.

 

[Artoomis]

I considered it worth it for one level for my character (who has two monk levels as well), and up to three levels for a pure cleric - to be picked up after getting a ninth level spell slot.

Five levels? Not worth it when so many prestige classes are out there that keep spell progression. But well worth it for an Epic game.

The class is fine as it is - if anything, MORE prestige classes should nix the spell progression - or at least slow it down.

 

[Ferox4]

I think it's worth it for a level or two. My Cleric took it when he went to 16th Level (Cleric 15/Hierophant 1). One nice thing is the increase in saving throws (+2 to F & W) and i love the Divine Reach - note we don't use the Reach Spell feat. I plan to take it again at 18th level and I'll likely take the ability that allows you to maximize your healing spells on people of the same alignment (we play a pretty intense alignment based game). The Cleric class is all ready pretty damn powerful as it is and i don't see any need to tweek the Hierophant PrC. Would it be nice to retain spell progression? Hell ya! But that's having your cake and eating it too. It must be the DM in me......lol

 

[Shadeus]

Hmm, I think I'm sensing a pattern. When spell-progression no longer matters, or when you think you can afford to take a level or two of it...go for it. Unfortunately, I can't think of a situation where I wouldn't want a level of cleric. Who doesn't want an extra 9th-level spell? I guess it's epic levels or bust.

 

[Nail]

I've yet to be convinced that any cleric PrCs out there is worth it.

The two big abilities clerics possess is spell casting and undead turning:

• Even one level of spell casting loss hurts, especially at higher levels! When you are in the 7th to 9th level range, those 5th level spells can't come fast enough. Later, it's the 7th level spells......
• And undead turning is a huge asset, that only gets more necessary as ELs increase. Other than the occasional Collossal Zombie, most CR-appropriate UD are in a cleric's range of effectiveness.....in some cases, it's a slam dunk.

Only one PrC out there gives access to both of these abilities....all of the rest are nearly worthless, and handicap a cleric's strengths.

 

[Beretta]

I've yet to be convinced that any cleric PrCs out there is worth it.

The two big abilities clerics possess is spell casting and undead turning:

• Even one level of spell casting loss hurts, especially at higher levels! When you are in the 7th to 9th level range, those 5th level spells can't come fast enough. Later, it's the 7th level spells......
• And undead turning is a huge asset, that only gets more necessary as ELs increase. Other than the occasional Collossal Zombie, most CR-appropriate UD are in a cleric's range of effectiveness.....in some cases, it's a slam dunk.

Only one PrC out there gives access to both of these abilities....all of the rest are nearly worthless, and handicap a cleric's strengths.

I agree completely. Until Complete Divine comes out, the only PrCl of worth from WotC books is the Sacred Exorcist. Put me in the camp of people who wouldn't take Heirophant until level 21+.

The comment that clerics without PrCl's are rare surprises me as most of them handicap their abilities by far too much. Odd! I'd be interested in hearing what others consider to be viable PrCl's for clerics other than the Sacred Exorcist.