High LA adjustment races: Equally bad for fighters as casters?

[GakToid]

There's a common theory that says loosing caster levels is bad.
I'm wondering if the same theory applies to fighters and base attack bonus.

Here's a list of ECL 12 characters with different hit dice and level adjustments. All of them are pretty good fighters, but I'm wondering if it's statistically better to have maximum base attack bonus or to have a fewer attacks and a higher strength bonus.

All classes have full BAB, total character ECL 12.
All characters have the same equipment. (The equipment will affect the final numbers, but since all the equipment is the same, it'll affect all of the characters equally.) I haven't included equipment in the numbers below.
All characters have the same skills, feats, ability increases (when applicable). I haven't included feats in the numbers below.
Damage is with an appropriately sized greatsword.

Note that I've not included the other factors that go into considering level adjustment races, I'm trying to focus on damage in this exercise. I realize that hit dice, constitution bonus, reach, saves, and other factors should be considered.

If someone has a spreadsheet that'll do the number crunching I'd appreciate it. Since I haven't considered feats or equipment below, a target AC of 22 is probably reasonable middle ground. (Actual AC of appropriate targets would be higher, but so would the actual melee attack bonus of an equipped character.)

-Gak Toid



Human ECL 12 (12 class levels + 0 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 3 level = 19 (+4 bonus)
BAB: 12/7/2
Melee: 16/11/6
Damage: 2d6 + 6 ~= 13

Half-Orc ECL 12 (12 class levels + 0 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 2 race + 3 level = 21 (+5 bonus)
BAB: 12/7/2
Melee: 17/12/7
Damage: 2d6 + 7 ~= 14

Orc ECL 12 (12 class levels + 0 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 4 race + 3 level = 23 (+6 bonus)
BAB: 12/7/2
Melee: 18/13/8
Damage: 2d6 + 9 ~= 16

Goliath ECL 12 (11 class levels + 1 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 4 race + 2 level = 22 (+6 bonus)
BAB: 11/6/1
Melee: 17/12/7
Damage: 3d6 + 9 ~= 19.5

Half-Ogre ECL 12 (10 class levels + 2 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 6 race + 2 level = 24 (+7 bonus)
BAB: 10/5
Melee: 17/12
Damage: 3d6 + 10 ~= 20.5

Human Half-Dragon ECL 12 (9 class levels + 3 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 8 race + 2 level = 26 (+8 bonus)
BAB: 9/4
Melee: 17/12
Damage: 2d6 + 12 ~= 19

Ogre ECL 12 (4HD + 6 class levels + 4 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 10 race + 2 level = 28 (+9 bonus)
BAB: 9/4
Melee: 18/13
Damage: 3d6 + 13 ~= 23.5

Troll ECL 12 (6HD + 1 class level + 5 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 12 race + 2 level = 30 (+10 bonus)
BAB: 5
Melee: 15
Damage: 3d6 + 15 ~= 25.5

Human Werebear (natural lycanthrope, brown bear) ECL 12 (6HD + 3 class levels + 3 LA)
Strength: 16 base + 18 race + 2 level = 36 (+13 bonus)
BAB: 7/2
Melee: 20/15
Damage: 3d6 + 19 ~= 29.5

 

[Prism]

To be honest just comparing BAB and damage really doesn't paint the whole picture - CON, hit dice, lack of class abilities etc all factor hugely. And then you have situational factors. For example I find that a large creature is as often a penalty as it is an advantage. In one of our campaigns there is a centaur fighter - overland he is awesome, underground it becomes very awkward for him to even get into combat.

Based on your examples I would say that an ogre has about as many hit dice (4) as you would want to invest into non class levels but has too high a LA. The 1HD options generally seem better. The only monster I think is worth considering more than a few hit dice for is an outsider - fighter BAB, cleric hits, rogue skills, monks saves. Finding one with a reasonable LA is more difficult

 

[Thanee]

It depends on the race, but there are certainly some, which are worth the LA, if you are a fighter-type. Generally, high LA isn't a good idea, tho.

Large size and high strength is a big advantage, if you do grapples and trips, for example, and there are other benefits. Trolls regenerate, to name one. Then there is natural armor. It's not that simple, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[TheEvil]

To be honest, it is the hit point loss that hurts the most for high LA fighters.
Taking your examples, we will assume a base Con of 14 and hit points based on half hit dice +1 after 1st level. Since you have already spent the attribute boosts, we will assume no adjustment other then racial. Anyone feel free to correct any math errors.

Human ECL 12 (12 class levels + 0 LA)
Con = 14 base = 14 (+2 bonus)
12 levels of fighter = 10+2+11*(6+2)=100 HP

Half-Orc ECL 12 (12 class levels + 0 LA)
Con = 14 base = 14 (+2 bonus)
12 levels of fighter = 10+2+11*(6+2)=100 HP

Orc ECL 12 (12 class levels + 0 LA)
Con = 14 base = 14 (+2 bonus)
12 levels of fighter = 10+2+11*(6+2)=100 HP

Goliath ECL 12 (11 class levels + 1 LA)
Con = 14 base + 2 race = 16 (+3 bonus)
11 levels of fighter = 10+3+10*(6+3)=103 HP

Half-Ogre ECL 12 (10 class levels + 2 LA)
Con = 14 base + 2 race = 16 (+3 bonus)
10 levels of fighter = 10+3+9*(6+3)=94 HP

Human Half-Dragon ECL 12 (9 class levels + 3 LA)
Con = 14 base + 2 race = 16 (+3 bonus)
9 levels of fighter = 10+3+8*(6+3)=85 HP

Ogre ECL 12 (4HD + 6 class levels + 2 LA)
Con = 14 base + 4 race = 18 (+4 bonus)
4 levels of giant + 6 levels of fighter = 8+4+3*(5+4)+6*(6+4)=99 HP

Troll ECL 12 (6HD + 1 class level + 5 LA)
Con = 14 base + 12 race = 26 (+8 bonus)
6 levels of giant + 1 level of fighter = 8+8+5*(5+8)+1*(6+8)=95 HP

Human Werebear (natural lycanthrope, brown bear) ECL 12 (6HD + 3 class levels + 3 LA)
Con = 14 base + 8 race = 22 (+6 bonus)
6 levels of humanoid + 3 levels of fighter = 8+6+5*(5+6)+3*(6+6)=105 HP

The results clearly show that I have more free time then is healthy, but also indicate that without a substantial Con boost, hit points suffer the more dice you lose. Ta-da!

 

[Shallown]

if your going to compare those things also think about comparing feats as well which is the fighters main area.

later

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

High ECL races can certainly work well for fighters depending on which race you pick. There are clearly some optimal and subomptimal choices that can make or break your high ECL fighter. The main thing to consider is the amount of natural hit dice and the level adjustment for the race. What you generaly want is the majority of the ECL to come from natural hit dice and not level adjustment. This allows you to keep pace better with ECL 0 fighters in terms of BAB and hitpoints. Another thing to consider is monster type, monsrous humanoids , outsiders and other races with +1 BAB per hit dice are a far better choice than giants and humanoids with slower BAB advancement.

Some of the best choices in my estimation are as follows.

Minotaur
Monstrous Humanoids
6 hit dice
+2 level adjustment

The minotaur is ECL 8, yet gives you high strength, high con, a good natural armorclass, a decent skill selection, natural attacks, and a few nifty immunities.

Harpy
Monstrous Humanoid
7 hit dice
+3 level adjustment

The harpy is another excellent choice especially for a ranged fighter. It offers great Dex, flight, a good skill selection, natural attacks, and a very potent special ability to boot.

There are others, but I think these two are the best compared to an ECL 0 fighter of comparable level.

Blackdirge