High Level 4e

[vonmolkew]

Got a question. I play with some folks who don't seem very interested in any kind of adventure that requires a character over 6th or so level. My persaonl feeling is things don't really get interesting until you're at least 10th.

So my question is this: how is 4e for high-level adventuring?

I have been playing since the 70's and have never really had too much trouble with high-level things getting out of hand until 3.5 came along. My 22nd level fighter/sorcerer/arcane archer was doing up to 600 points of damage in a round, which got a little crazy. But my 17th level Magic-User from 2nd edition got in and out of more scrapes (barely) than I can shake a stick at.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, my face to face group has been playing 4E since it came out and we have gone straight form 1st to 18th now. And 4E has been playable, even enjoyable the whole way. Some bumps in the road, including a couple TPKs, but overall good.

But tlaking about high paragon, yes, the newer abilities are interesting, but it is more that feats and magic items that have expanded. WE really don't have a ton more powers than we did at the end of heroic, but mroe magical items, and choices there. Add in a few paragon feats and we have some nice abilities, though at-wills are still pretty important.

The thing I have noticed is that the dice rolling is much the same. A 14 or above hits, an 18 always hits, but sometimes you can hit on a 8, or even a 3 or more against the right opponent with the right power. At low levels, you could not hit with a 3 or even an 8 much, but at higher levels the swing between hitting a hard defense and an easy defense is a lot bigger. It is nearly the same for opponents attacking us. Pick the 36 AC or the 22 reflex on our dwarf fighter. Which would you choose? And there is little he can do about it, unfortunately. Sure, take a feat for a +2, which means the monsters need a 8 instead of a 6 to hit him? Why bother, better to keep working on his core abilities.

But the game does work at higher levels, I have to say.

 

[interwyrm]

I haven't played at high levels, but I get the impression the game doesn't even start to break down until high epic.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Got a question. I play with some folks who don't seem very interested in any kind of adventure that requires a character over 6th or so level. My persaonl feeling is things don't really get interesting until you're at least 10th.

Why? Our 4E game is at 6th level right now and we are having fun. One of the design goals of 4E was to give 1st level characters more to do mechanically speaking and it does that.

 

[Stalker0]

Why? Our 4E game is at 6th level right now and we are having fun. One of the design goals of 4E was to give 1st level characters more to do mechanically speaking and it does that.

I will echo the OP on this one actually.

While 4e gives you more powers, I don't feel I get more at low levels.

Caster types of course get the variety of 3e spells at low levels. And 3e feats generally add more new abilities than the 4e counterparts. Plus at low level you had the thrill of often one shotting monsters with your weapon.

My group felt that they didn't get enough "stuff" until right about paragon level to have some variety.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Why? Our 4E game is at 6th level right now and we are having fun. One of the design goals of 4E was to give 1st level characters more to do mechanically speaking and it does that.

Yes, but 6th level is another encounter, utility, daily and 3 feats. Considering a 1st level character has 2(3) at wills) 1 encounter and 1(2) feats (human) that is a 100% imporovement in options duiring combat. Not bad.

The innate +3 to all skills is nice too, as you feel you can actually succeed at non-trained rolls.

Yes, 4E is the best so far for 1st level play, hands down (IMHO), but I will like a few levels higher.

 

[gribble]

I haven't played at high levels, but I get the impression the game doesn't even start to break down until high epic.

That hasn't been our experience. We're in early Epic levels now (22nd), and a couple of things have become evident since about mid-Paragon (level 16+):

1. The gulf in difference between optimised and non-optimised PCs. Last session, our optimised characters were having an easy time of it, whereas our non-optimised ranger's night pretty much consisted of going down and being healed and hoping to roll natural 20s (to hit the opponents).
2. Just like 3e, there are a lot of "auto-win" buttons, especially for wizards. Spells like Evards Black Tentacles pretty much single-handedly win an encounter when used right.

Much like every other edition of D&D, 4e very much has a sweet spot. Admittedly, it seems to be between level 1 and level 15, which is much wider than previous editions.

 

[Rechan]

Why? Our 4E game is at 6th level right now and we are having fun. One of the design goals of 4E was to give 1st level characters more to do mechanically speaking and it does that.

From my opinion, as a DM, the monsters don't really start getting badass until early paragon. The very cool, very nasty, very complex stuff.

As a player, the powers just get more meaty. For instance, the only wall a wizard's going to get at level 6 is a wall of fog.

 

[Oni]

The gulf in difference between optimised and non-optimised PCs. Last session, our optimised characters were having an easy time of it, whereas our non-optimised ranger's night pretty much consisted of going down and being healed and hoping to roll natural 20s (to hit the opponents).

Was the character intentionally handicapped, only hitting on a 20 seems remarkable even for a very casual character.

 

[Cyronax]

From my opinion, as a DM, the monsters don't really start getting badass until early paragon. The very cool, very nasty, very complex stuff.

As a player, the powers just get more meaty. For instance, the only wall a wizard's going to get at level 6 is a wall of fog.

I've only DMed and played in Heroic Tier games so far. Does the problem with 'grinds' get worse at higher level? I'm just asking for an average or general assessment, I'm familiar with several threads that advise DMs to mitigate grinds. I guess what I mean, would be if combat becomes more decisive (as in more proportionate damage being dealt)?

C.I.D.