Well, there is a difference if your NPC is kidnapped by a bunch of goblins or by the queen of winter herself, no?
D&D General High Level Adventures Where the World Isn't at Stake
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Stefano Rinaldelli
Hero
Well so the only difference is the CR of monsters? It seem to me a poor way of define high level adventures. Maybe I'm an old school grognard, but the adventure to me is to face great perils with little means. Hi level are there to be a target, the classic bait to move on the PC, but more important is the journey. Arriving at high levels my interest for the adventures is less and less and many narrative forms that could be used in this tiers are simply not working in a RPG. it is not an accident if all the narrative must have a strong motivation, a great danger, a formidable opponent. Player's must believe that their abilities are not enough, they must fear the fail of their task and the end of their life. is not an accident if Tolkien mixed powerful beings with very weak one and put in the hands of the weakest the key to save the day. LOTR works because trying to enhance the power would be to help the enemy, power is something to escape from. Well DnD mechanics are based exactly on the opposite and this is functional and funny for a RPG to move on but unfortunately leave us with a very few things in hand when you are close to reach the top of power.
To get to the topic:
It is a bit of a question of your general power level, power factions major players etc. in your campaign world.
E.g. if the PCs are the only level 16 - 20 individuals in the world then things could get boring quickly since the only challenge for them would be more and tougher mobs.
But let us assume you want to run some conflict versus some faction:
Here is the thing: the faction leader might be a super rich merchant who is only a level 1 or so human, but able to buy whole kingdoms and mercenary armies. Also he can buy the best magic protection for himself, so players wanting to harm him have to deal with artifact magic defending him.
And even if there is no protection, it might be a taboo for the players to harm him in any way e.g. since they would be outlawed in all realms and declared fee bird to be captured or slayed by anyone who feels like it, or similar social barriers.
That would be a bit like RL, not the best fighter wins, but the man who can afford to hire him and his 99 other buddies of the top 100 best fighters.
What many seem to assume, is that a level 20 party is unbeatable by most challenges, but they are not.
How do you guys play gods (not demigods) or top arch demons in your world?
Are they just like mobs with a CR of let us say 30 or is there more to them, especially when on their home plane?
I tend to play these antagonists like they should be imho: Most of them can do more at will than a combined level 20 group, and simply reducing one avatar of them to zero hit points won't really resolve anything. The only thing keeping them in check, is that e.g. gods friendly to the PCs would oppose every direct confrontation of an entity with the PCs. But using hoards of pesky minions, to hamper the PCs on every corner, is fair game.
It is a bit of a question of your general power level, power factions major players etc. in your campaign world.
E.g. if the PCs are the only level 16 - 20 individuals in the world then things could get boring quickly since the only challenge for them would be more and tougher mobs.
But let us assume you want to run some conflict versus some faction:
Here is the thing: the faction leader might be a super rich merchant who is only a level 1 or so human, but able to buy whole kingdoms and mercenary armies. Also he can buy the best magic protection for himself, so players wanting to harm him have to deal with artifact magic defending him.
And even if there is no protection, it might be a taboo for the players to harm him in any way e.g. since they would be outlawed in all realms and declared fee bird to be captured or slayed by anyone who feels like it, or similar social barriers.
That would be a bit like RL, not the best fighter wins, but the man who can afford to hire him and his 99 other buddies of the top 100 best fighters.
What many seem to assume, is that a level 20 party is unbeatable by most challenges, but they are not.
How do you guys play gods (not demigods) or top arch demons in your world?
Are they just like mobs with a CR of let us say 30 or is there more to them, especially when on their home plane?
I tend to play these antagonists like they should be imho: Most of them can do more at will than a combined level 20 group, and simply reducing one avatar of them to zero hit points won't really resolve anything. The only thing keeping them in check, is that e.g. gods friendly to the PCs would oppose every direct confrontation of an entity with the PCs. But using hoards of pesky minions, to hamper the PCs on every corner, is fair game.
nope see my post directly below your answer
IMNSHO, the best way to give something high stakes is to make it personal. Some ways to apply this to quests:
- One character's spouse/mother/sibling/important person is missing. They cannot be located by any magical means. Maybe they're kidnapped. Maybe they were experimenting with magic. In any case, they must be found.
- A character needs special ingredients or training to get their next level abilities, so they need to go a quest to find the items or person. This works best if you also do roleplaying about training between levels, and enforce rules about spellbooks and components. Bascially, you can make characters work to get access to high level spells or get training for their highest level abilities.
- A character's childhood home is under threat. Not by monsters or war but by government. The authorities are going to make a road/bypass/building, and are going to tear the home down. The king agrees to change his plans if the adventurers do a favor for him... Obviously this requires a certain level of lawfullness/goodness in the party to prevent it from turning into violence against the (good) king.
- A character's dog accidentally got into a cursed potion. It will die in XX days if an antidote can't be found. Failure doesn't mean the world ends, but it would be really sad.
- One character's spouse/mother/sibling/important person is missing. They cannot be located by any magical means. Maybe they're kidnapped. Maybe they were experimenting with magic. In any case, they must be found.
- A character needs special ingredients or training to get their next level abilities, so they need to go a quest to find the items or person. This works best if you also do roleplaying about training between levels, and enforce rules about spellbooks and components. Bascially, you can make characters work to get access to high level spells or get training for their highest level abilities.
- A character's childhood home is under threat. Not by monsters or war but by government. The authorities are going to make a road/bypass/building, and are going to tear the home down. The king agrees to change his plans if the adventurers do a favor for him... Obviously this requires a certain level of lawfullness/goodness in the party to prevent it from turning into violence against the (good) king.
- A character's dog accidentally got into a cursed potion. It will die in XX days if an antidote can't be found. Failure doesn't mean the world ends, but it would be really sad.
robus
Lowcountry Low Roller
I’m finishing up our multi-year campaign with the PCs at level 20 (effectively, some multi-classed). It’s a personal quest to aid a former PC wizard who, when using wish to get the party out of a jam, caused devastating harm to another wizard whose partner now wants either a cure or to exact their revenge. The PCs are now trying to recover a lost artifact that is essential to effecting a cure (or so they hope). So this final quest is of a very personal nature even if the monsters and dangers they face are epic level.
They're having a great time because, for pretty much all of them, encountering the unknown is adventure enough.
They're having a great time because, for pretty much all of them, encountering the unknown is adventure enough.
3catcircus
Adventurer
All of those minor screw-ups the PCs made over the course of the campaign? They are ripe for high level play. That lowly town sheriff they made look like a fool? He's now the ruler of his own kingdom.
The mid-level minion the PCs tortured for info on the BBEG when they were 3rd level? He survived and is now the justice of the peace in this region and his word is law.
The henchman that had to be forcibly retired due to getting caught in the wizard's fireball against those trolls? She runs an inn now and knows all about the PCs and their weaknesses - and is happy to provide it for the right price.
A rival band of adventurers searching for the same mcguffin that you were hired to find for a local sage and who you managed to double-cross so that the sage paid you the 100 gp? Yeah, they're now your neighbors and have their own lordships in the same kingdom - with their leader marrying the daughter of the king. Any wonder why your businesses burnt down, your caravan routes are besieged by bandits, and your pleas to your king fall on deaf ears?
The mid-level minion the PCs tortured for info on the BBEG when they were 3rd level? He survived and is now the justice of the peace in this region and his word is law.
The henchman that had to be forcibly retired due to getting caught in the wizard's fireball against those trolls? She runs an inn now and knows all about the PCs and their weaknesses - and is happy to provide it for the right price.
A rival band of adventurers searching for the same mcguffin that you were hired to find for a local sage and who you managed to double-cross so that the sage paid you the 100 gp? Yeah, they're now your neighbors and have their own lordships in the same kingdom - with their leader marrying the daughter of the king. Any wonder why your businesses burnt down, your caravan routes are besieged by bandits, and your pleas to your king fall on deaf ears?
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
The PCs are dropped the information that shows what Chancellor Palpatine / Darth Sidious is planning. Stopping him is imperative (triggering the Clone Wars is part of his plan) but the PCs must be delicate about it, or they will fire the first shots. How do you take apart an economic empire and political machine? And, can you get anybody else to believe this convoluted tale of double identities, enough to help you out?
robus
Lowcountry Low Roller
This must be a hold over from the old days, but I don’t understand why high level characters are expected to have kingdoms etc? Talk about getting a desk job!
If I were a bold and skilled adventurer, I’d immediately delegate that to some capable underling and get back on with the adventuring
Or not even bother with a kingdom at all.
If I were a bold and skilled adventurer, I’d immediately delegate that to some capable underling and get back on with the adventuring
Or not even bother with a kingdom at all.
The Glen
Legend
Look at the module Test of the Warlords where you are trying to establish your domain. Deals with threats to your new land and how you handle the politics with other lords. Nothing world-threatening but you are trying to make a name for yourself and will have to defend your lands.
