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High Level Enemies: Epic or Near Epic?

Shemeska

Adventurer
Most of the BBEGs I've had start at around level 20 or so, and go up to 'doesn't have stats'.

For those BBEGs who don't have stats, you might fight an avatar, aspect, or projection of them, and those might be anywhere from CR 25 to CR 40. At that point it's entirely context dependant.

I will not water down an archfiend or similar entity to some arbitrary level 20ish level, just to allow PCs of some likewise arbitrary level to kill them and take their stuff. I also don't think that the game mechanics can adequetly express such beings, regardless of what level you peg them at, CR 35 or CR 5000. So epic level stats for avatars and such, but the actual archfiend or similar thing, no stats.
 

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ruleslawyer

Registered User
No comment on that from me...

But anyway: The idea of an end-of-campaign BBEG is an odd one for me. My games have all been serial but non-linear, and thus the PCs have various foes at various times; moreover, they usually (sometimes inadvertently) choose their own enemies. Thus, it's much more likely that the "BBEG" in a low-level game may be the leader of a bandit gang, the chieftain of a tribe of orcish marauders, or the head of the local thieves' guild than any sort of epic-level or 20th-level being.

As far as my world at large goes (the campaign is centered in Toril, the world of the Forgotten Realms setting), the scale is pretty much like this:

1) Ordinary beings: These are creatures with NPC classes, the overwhelming majority of beings in the game world, from paupers to soldiers to thieves to kings. Even the majority of "mages" are adepts, not PC-classed spellcasters. I use Iron Heroes NPC classes, which are quite weak compared to PC classes, so the differences are VERY apparent. A 4th or 5th-level IH character can probably defeat a 10th-level warrior with ease in combat, and it just goes up from there.

2) Dangerous or puissant beings: This includes the lower-CR type of monster (owlbears, ogres, the standard run of oozes and aberrations) and low-level PC-classed beings. These are likely to draw stares in small towns and villages, and inspire caution even in tough guardsmen and frontier types.

3) Heroic beings: This includes mid-level PC classed types, lesser fiends and celestials, and monsters such as giants, greater hydras, chimerae, and greater aberrations (illithids, beholders, aboleths). These beings are either (if monstrous) dread terrors whose nature is whispered by the most inquisitive sages, or heroes whose fame is sung across the land. The more sophisticated towns and cities (Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Berdusk, Zhentil Keep, etc.) have procedures developed to handle such beings if they run amok. This is where the first echelon of background campaign villains would be likely to lie; the illithid who sends charmed minions and doppelgangers to slay and infiltrate among the PCs, the Zhentarim warlord whose troops turn up as a constant thorn in their side, the dreaded sorcerer who toys with powers beyond his control.

4) Legendary beings. This includes the highest-level (15th-20th) PC-classed types, the moe powerful fiends and celestials, dragons, and the most powerful of other creatures. These beings are famed in song and legend across the Realms, and form the highest echelons of power in most places (the ranks of the Zhentarim and the Harpers, the governments of the Realms' major cities and kingdoms, etc.) These types are likely to turn up as villains only after extended play, and then when the PCs are already in the middle levels themselves; gaining Naergoth Bladelord, Sememmon, or the balor Errtu as a foe takes a lot of accomplishment!

5) Epic beings. This includes beings of 21st-30th level. Such are the Chosen of Mystra, the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim, the greatest of dragons, the phaerimm, liches, the Zulkirs of Thay, the archwizards of Halruaa, and the greatest elven high mages, as well as the Dukes of Hell and lesser demon lords and daemon masters. These beings are either immortal or extremely long-lived, and the PCs may only ascend to their ranks by virtue of the fact that they are destined for greatness. (Moreover, some sort of divine blessing, quest, or other means of ascension is often required.) In order for the PCs to earn a foe of this stripe, they are either (a) epic beings themselves (only one PC group of mine has hit this level, and they're effectively semiretired); (b) acting on behalf of one of the epic beings listed above; or (c) they have something the BBEG really wants (an artifact, the secret to an epic spell, a vital piece of information, or the potential for an archfiend to gain a serious advantage for itself or its masters).

6) Lesser cosmic beings. This includes beings of 31st-40th level. Such are the absolute mightiest of the Realms (Larloch is the only one known, really) and the lesser powers of the Realms Beyond: Archdevils, demon princes, demigods, and some REALLY serious monsters (greater abominations, supreme Far Realm entities, etc.) Even the most powerful mortals are likely to be quite beneath the attention of such beings; one would either have to be doing something that directly serves the interest of a power of equal stature, or possibly be verging on a similar status (although I can't imagine a campaign that gets past 30th level!) to acquire such a being as a foe. Moreover, the vast majority of such beings are prevented from acting directly in the Material Plane, so PCs will interact with their agents for the most part.

7) Greater cosmic beings. This includes beings above 40th level, including but not limited to true deities, archfiends of the highest rank, Elder Evils, and similar beings (cosmic monsters locked outside existence for all eternity, etc.). PCs may fight the worshipers or proxies of such an entity, but they will almost certainly never face the entity itself. My epic-level PCs had a feud against (the greater deity) Cyric going for many years (of game time and real time), but that feud was carried out against his church, summoned fiends, and once a minor aspect of the deity. It is possible that PCs would find themselves made proxies of such a power or sent out on a quest on behalf of the power, but that's about it.

8) Supreme/transcendent cosmic entities. This includes beings of sufficient power to overmaster or challenge even the gods themselves. Such beings would be 70th+ level (since my greater deities top out around CR 67) and able to resist even divine and cosmic abilities with some ease. While such a being could be a "BBEG" of sorts in the campaign, the real fight would be against cultists or ambitious would-be lieutenants seeking to free such a being or bring it into this cosmos.
 

Ibram

First Post
The biggest of the big bads IMC is an advanced great wyrm red dragon with the Eternal template (essentialy making him a demi-god). Never actualy "named" he is refered to as the Conquer Wyrm, the Master of Masters, the Emperor Drake, the Daemon-Dragon King, ect... A terror of the ancient world that is an ever present threat to the powers of the world.

He stands as a threat to the world that no party could ever hope to overcome, living proof that even the most powerful mortal can be outmatched by the true masters of the world.

Other big bads in my world have ranged from an elven liche (13th lvl wizard), a power mad warlord (8th lvl fighter), an ancient daemon (custom creature CR ~12), and a fanatical confessor (7th lvl cleric)
 

Darkwolf445

First Post
Higher level enemies in my campaign tend to be uber-high, but they are also the masterminds behind all the bad things going on. Aberrations are my bad guy of choice, probably due to my love of Call of Cthulhu. Lords of Darkness was great in the portrayal of those epic level Aboleth and Illithid. These two races are so alien and so intelligent that it is hard not to conceive a web of plots and subplots that have been going on for thousands of years. THE mastermind is almost definitely godlike.
 

Goblyn

Explorer
Darkwolf445 said:
Higher level enemies in my campaign tend to be uber-high, but they are also the masterminds behind all the bad things going on. Aberrations are my bad guy of choice, probably due to my love of Call of Cthulhu. Lords of Darkness was great in the portrayal of those epic level Aboleth and Illithid. These two races are so alien and so intelligent that it is hard not to conceive a web of plots and subplots that have been going on for thousands of years. THE mastermind is almost definitely godlike.

Get out of my brain. While it still may be some time before I stat out any BBEGs(players are currently just reaching 5th) I don't thin I could not put at least one mind flayer in there. And a lich. And some orcs.
 

Baron Opal

First Post
I have a firm ceiling of 20 levels / HD for most beings. A hard ceiling of 30 levels / HD for everybody that can be fought and killed. Now, I'm not sure what CR that translates to at the upper end, but my BBEGs are an elder brain cabal, the last yuan-ti temple and the mechanizations of a couple demonlords.

I find that having a mortal with 20 base class levels and 10 prestige class levels, or alternatevly a 20 HD outsider with +10 HD / levels is sufficent.
 

Pants

First Post
Really depends upon the Enemy.

I had a recurring enemy who hassled the party a few times before getting taken out. He was a Level 15 Necromancer and he was a minion of a level 24 Lich Wizard.

I'm not a big fan of the epic rules 'as written' so my big bads tend to top out around or slightly above CR 20.
 

green slime

First Post
Two Epic level (60th) BBEG, each other's antagonist's, rulers of nations at war with each other, and a horde of other lesser evils to choose from on the way. I plan on taking the PC's to around 30th. There are other ways to defeat BBEG's other than standing over their corpses gloating at the artifacts reaped. Although that too is a possibility.
 

Tsillanabor

First Post
It depends upon the group. If I'm DMing a group that doesn't want to play past a certain level I'll make the BBEG about 6-8 levels or so higher. If the group wants to play into epic levels (such as my current group) then there will be BBEGs at each stage.
 

paradox42

First Post
green slime said:
Two Epic level (60th) BBEG, each other's antagonist's, rulers of nations at war with each other, and a horde of other lesser evils to choose from on the way. I plan on taking the PC's to around 30th. There are other ways to defeat BBEG's other than standing over their corpses gloating at the artifacts reaped. Although that too is a possibility.
It certainly is, and maybe not for the reasons you might have thought: Upper_Krust has theorized, and I have seen it proven in personal experience, that a well-prepared group of level X PCs can take on a creature with CR double that of the average party level- and win. So those 30th level PCs you just mentioned may, in fact, be able to take on your CR 60 bad guys and beat them down. It depends on the party's tactics and how they go about prosecuting the fight.
 

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