High level play and "reverse LA"

[Imre]

The bias against high level play in Wizards publications is undeniable. Once you hit epic levels, many of the rules formalisms break down. The issue that is the biggest for me is NPC power level. I've already houseruled that magic items have to use a slot, so no Bagful of Stones That Let Me Do Whatever; and that the "non-standard" bonuses cannot be put on permanent or semi-permanent items (sacred, luck, etc). This closes the gap somewhat.

One issue that gets a lot of attention is ECL. Anyone who has played a creature with an LA greater than 4 and/or a lot of racial HD eventually has to face the fact that they are way behind the curve, at least when it comes to a combat-driven style of play. At high levels, the ECL rubric is completely useless.

Enough setup, now the punchline:

An issue that I never see addressed is something like "reverse LA". A creature's LA is designed to account for the increase in relative power and influence that its abilities will have when in the hands of a PC. However, the converse is ignored. The versatility of a wizard, the ability to rage 5 times per day, etc mean nothing in the hands of a "generic" NPC. Many of the class features that increase a PC's ECL are worthless to an NPC. (This obviously isn't really an issue for monsters, just NPCs built from PC classes.) The only time I've seen this brought up is in the ELH where they suggest that you consider an NPC as two levels lower for its CR.

This kind of quick and dirty rule just isn't enough. As the wealth gap widens, NPCs fall further and further behind. When it comes to NPC "bosses", I've taken to giving a bonus feat or two or something of the like. This, however, is a bit unfair to the players.

Have any of you addressed this issue in your games?

 

[Quartz]

You're missing the difference between ECL and CR. Simplified, the former assumes that they are a PC, the latter an opponent.

 

[GreatLemur]

An issue that I never see addressed is something like "reverse LA". A creature's LA is designed to account for the increase in relative power and influence that its abilities will have when in the hands of a PC. However, the converse is ignored. The versatility of a wizard, the ability to rage 5 times per day, etc mean nothing in the hands of a "generic" NPC. Many of the class features that increase a PC's ECL are worthless to an NPC.

Just one more good reason for D&D to keep moving towards a "per encounter" paradigm, instead of the "per day" balances of previous editions.

 

[paradox42]

Quartz is correct, and there is in fact at least one thinker out in Netland who's been trying to deal with the problem: Upper_Krust of Immortal's Handbook fame. He's the one who came up with the "Challenging Challenge Ratings" system that made it into Grim Tales, and allows for surprisingly accurate estimates of CR even at ridiculous levels- we're talking the hundreds (if not thousands or more) here.

As UK sees it, ECL is roughly equivalent to 1.5 x CR in nearly every case- thus, a 30th-level NPC is worth about CR 20. I'm oversimplifying things here, but my basic point is- somebody has done this work. And more and more, as my Epic game climbs into stratospheric levels (the party is now 7 characters of 30th-32nd level) I'm finding that UK's numbers are correct.

 

[Imre]

No, no...I realize the difference between ECL and CR, but thanks. Quartz, I think you're entirely missing the point of my question.

I'll have to look up Upper_Krust.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Ah, yes, Upper_Krust's ECL and CR systems are pretty good. I don't think they are a substitute for common sense, but they are pound for pound more mathematically accurate than most of the junk WotC spits out. (Don't get me wrong; WotC still puts out some real gems)

I'd also like to point out U_K's numbers are pretty accurate at lower levels too; I haven't even looked at DMG encounter level guidelines in almost a year; yet I haven't run any encounter who's difficulty wasn't spot-on where I intended it. An 8th level group of 3 characters, even in a low magic setting, can take down a marilith if they go all-out and fight intelligently. The DMG won't tell you that. It would say it's suicide. The party killed the marilith with no casualties. (Though it was a close fight, and most of the characters only had a few hitpoints remaining)

That said, ECL/LA is more than number crunching. Some capabilities are just plain expected of characters at a certain point. Epic characters and monsters usually have spell resistance. Nothing is more embarrassing than getting killed by magic missiles. The ability to bring people back from the dead is expected of any party facing foes who posses instant-death spells. (And even if they can't rez the victim themselves, they can afford to pay for the spell if need be)

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

This kind of quick and dirty rule just isn't enough. As the wealth gap widens, NPCs fall further and further behind. When it comes to NPC "bosses", I've taken to giving a bonus feat or two or something of the like. This, however, is a bit unfair to the players.

Have any of you addressed this issue in your games?

Yes. I find it unnacceptable that NPCs just don't merit their CR. My solution was to turn certain magic items into non-lootable Tattoos, so that the DM can deck NPCs out using full PC-level wealth without fear of unbalancing the characters' wealth per level. In this way, NPCs are on par with PCs and I don't have to mess with CR or ECL or whatnot. I'm in the process of updating my site with this info, at which point I'll put a link in my sig.

 

[Michaluk]

Yo man

Hey, I know you!

Anyway, something I've been kicking around for a while, and similar to the tattoos, is focusing items so they only work for the character that focused them. Like the Kensai but for all characters. This is stolen directly out of WOW by the way (I'm sure previous games had it), and it wouldn't suprise me at all to learn that there were many threads on this already.

This is simply a way to get more wealth into NPC hands without worrying about it ever getting to the PCs.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

At epic levels, one of the things you really have to watch is stacking - and those sneaky "unnamed" bonuses that just start adding up. These have a tendency to unbalance things. I haven't seen Upper Krust's work myself, but from what I hear, it is really good.

 

[paradox42]

At epic levels, one of the things you really have to watch is stacking - and those sneaky "unnamed" bonuses that just start adding up. These have a tendency to unbalance things. I haven't seen Upper Krust's work myself, but from what I hear, it is really good.

It is indeed. U_K has personally statted beings such as Godzilla and Galactus using parts of his system, and the one book that's available to the general public right now (the Epic Bestiary Volume I) contains such fearsome critters as the Akalich (a divine-level demilich that feeds on the souls of gods) and the instantly-legendary Neutronium Golem (the book-stated CR for it is 9721).

Others have used his work to perform such fun exercises as providing true stats for Pun-Pun the infinite kobold, Lavos from Chrono Trigger, Great A'Tuin the World Turtle, and at the height of absurdity, a local entry dubbed the Mortiverse.

The Bestiary I is currently available only in PDF form, but supposedly Mongoose is going to publish a print version in 2007 under their Flaming Cobra imprint. They haven't told him exactly when, just yet, and in the meantime he's been polishing and completing the basic rules set for his system, which is called Immortals Handbook: Ascension.