High Magic - High technology, historical question

[Sixchan]

I'm one of the big subscribers to the theory that Magic and Technology can co-exist easily, and that Progress isn't greatly slowed by Magic's Presence.

With regards to Low-Tech versus High Magic, I still think there is plenty of room for both to exist. For Instance, Yes, a cannon is much less useful than a wizard with a wand of fireballs, but a wand of fireballs costs a lot more than gunpowder and cannonballs. Equally, it isn't difficult to bring 50 cannon to a battle (it isn't difficult to bring even more, for that matter). It is, however, probably very difficult to bring 50 Wizards to a battle.
And besides that, magic and technology are not exclusive. How does a Cannon of Fireballs sound?

Similarly, consider firearms. This is one area of big issue in considering a Magical World, mainly because Magical Worlds are often at the stage where the Next Big Advance is the gun. When thinking about this, I feel it is a mistake to compare it to a Wand of Fireballs. Instead, compare it to the Sword or the Bow, since your average soldier simply cannot learn to use a Wand of Fireballs without extensive training, and such training was rare in our world until (I think) the Industrial period, when professional soldiers became the norm over mass conscription. A gun is better than a sword because it has the range, and because most soldiers were unarmoured. A gun is better than a bow, because it has armour piercing properties, which make it easier to bring down Heavy Cavalry (as badly as I understand medieval tactics, I think the general rule was 'infantry kills cavalry, cavalry kills archery, archery kills infantry', and the gun when used by the archery could break this). Not to mention that a Gun and it's bullets can be enchanted just as well as a Bow and Arrow can.

Continuing in the battlefield area, you also have to think about tactics. Picture a battle with a technological army on one side (muskets, artilery, etc.) and a magical one on the other (wizards, regular soldiers, cavalry with magic swords and armour). But what if the battle is taking place in an Anti-Magic field (by accident, design on the part of the Techs, magic on the part of the techs, etc.). What if the Tech side gets off a few silence spells? The Tech side has Magic and Technology. The Magic side just has Magic.

Okay, onto Advancement. There are two kinds of Mage. There's the guy who goes out on adventures, risks his life for gold and fame, etc. etc., and there's the guy who studies Magic at home, from books, most likely in an institute of magical learning. Mages of the latter kind are more likely interested in Knowledge and Learning rather than the combat uses of Magic, so these people likely have an interest in other things as well. Even if there are few scientists to begin with, there are Mages who dabble in science. Those with even a passing interest will discover things. This might make them more curious, and discoveing new things might interest them more than learning from a spell book. This will lead to scientific advances, and once these have practical implications, people will see some clear benefits of technology over Magic (particularly the one that lets the less educated use technology). Soon, people will want to become Scientists over Magicians (although I doubt that anyone wouldn't learn the Cantrips at the very least, given their usefulness), and Advancement speeds up.

I personally consider Magic to be the Fifth Fundamental Force in most Magical Worlds, a force that takes positive, negative, the Elemental and other energies and changes them. A Lightning Bolt spell would take energy (mostly positive), and Magic Force would change it primarily into Electrical Energy.
If this was correct for the world in question (or if Magic was an energy all on its own), then Magic becomes a Science. Magic isn't hurt by Science, IMO, it is helped by it. Creating a spell wouldn't require ages of research for a spell that in the end might not do exactly what you want it to do, it would just requre about 50 pages of very complicated Calculus (which should be no problem for someone of 18 Intelligence) to get the spell effect you want.

Hmm...there was something else I was going to say, but I can't remember it now. Oh well. I'll remember it later though.

Oh, and many people disagree with everything I've just said, so if you're reading, please be gentle in your reply.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Magic, at least as described in the D&D rules (and we have to start with some[/i ] rule set, or else we'll argue about vastly different things and disagree on everything) is very powerful, but it has its limits:

First, its practioners have to study it for years until they can use the more interesting applications.

Second, they can only use it a limited number of days.

Third, their efforts cannot be easily reproduced - sure, there are magic items, but they cost time, money, and most importantly, XP to create. So any wizard who creates them on a regular basis will suffer for it.

In other words, there are some real limits to the use of magic - and thus, it will only be used when available mundane technology can't easily reproduce it.

In other words, if you want to dig a canal, it's usually cheaper and more convenient to hire a few dozens of people with shovels instead of creating a golem for it. And the magical copying machine above might be very useful as long as the alternatives are scribes copying everything by hand - but once the printing press is invented, you'll only use magic to copy books if they have limited print runs.

Of course, you could fiddle with these basic assumptions of D&D magic - what, for example, would happen if you could get a relatively cheap and renewable source for XP that makes enchanting much cheaper?

That, of course, is one of the main issues of Urbis, my homebrew setting (you knew a plug for it had to come, didn't you? ), which has some rather clever things to say about such issues.

At least, I hope so.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

It may be cheaper to hire guys with shovels but golems are forever. Once the inital return on investment has been made back the golem keeps on going. As does a slightly modified wand of fireballs that can be used twice a day (no charge limit). So a 4th level sorceror can be sent out to the front lines to "soften" targets (possibly gunpowder depots?) before the rest of the army comes in to do the rest of the work.

Plus some summoned creatures have damage resistance that normal weapons just can't breach. Summoning a celestial/fiendish dire bear would require a cleric or wizard of 11th level. According to "da r00lz" that kind of power would be theoretically available in a large city of 12,000 - 25,000 people.

Let's set aside for the moment how individual campaigns handle this. Otherwise we'll be here for a long time.

So our 11th level cleric answers the call from his queen, goes to the battlefield where the evil cannon-using army dwell and summons a celestial dire bear. In the meantime, the 4th level sorceror with the wand of fireballs has had the scouts report in.

At night, the attack begins! WHAM! WHAM! Two fireballs strike at the artillery from 200 feet (60 meters). True, cannon can fire from further away, but our clever sorceror has covered both of them with invisibility! On the first fireball, the cleric summons the bear and commands it to charge and attack the enemy. By the time the second fireball has landed the bear has closed the distance and has possibly engaged the enemy. The sorceror and cleric head back while the dire bear attacks for 9 more rounds or so. The bear has DR 10/+3 and SR 24 (the tech army has a 2nd level wizard that does her best against the mighty foe). The bear has 102 hit points and does a minium of 7 points of damage with its bite and 12 points of damage with it's mighty paws. In under a minute the artillery position is routed, a total of 3 spells and two uses of a magic item are all that the magic-using army has expended.

Now, I'm not saying scientific progress will stop. After all, Sir Issac Newton spent 20 years dabbling in alchemy, so its reasonable to assume an Elminster or Raistlin might make a study of science (Raistlin did indeed persue it, according to the books). But one 11th level spellcaster can change a battlefield very quickly. And if I were a king, that is a message I would hear loud and clear.

Again - just my two cents.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I don't think there has ever been a satisfactory explanation for why 'progress' does or does not occur save that it is tied to organized distribution and education. This isn't necessary for technological progress it simply makes it more persistent.

You certainly don't need magic to prevent technological advancement. Most of our existence as a species has not been a sterling example of rapid or consistent progress of any sort.

I mean the rapid scientific 'progress' feel to the past couple hundred years certainly seems to be an aberration in human history perhaps only rivaled by the city building of the Fertile Crescent. I don't think anybody has the frame to say whether or not magic would have or wouldn't have interfered with the factors that created our current state.

My suggestion would be to find a theory for the scientific revolution that sounds appealing to you and work magic into it or out of it as suits your fancy.

My only other specific point would be to approach this in a manner that recognizes that there is a lot of mythologizing that approaches the idea of scientific progresses when most of these issues are handled by people in a very pragmatic fashion.

For instnace, much has been made of the flawed nature of a magical printing press in this thread already, but a magical printing press is going to have a lot of comparative advantages compared to a technological one.

Wouldn't need as much maintenance, probably faster until you start to compare it with the really late model printing presses of this or the last century, only needs one guy or gal to create one even if it is an extraordinary guy, it's a much more easily perfectable technology than a non-magical one, and it's undoubtably even easier to control than a normal printing press.

Since the real success of a technology is generally measured by the extent to which the powerful institutions of a society come to believe in it, and one of the primary benefits of the early printing press was that it was an easily controllable way for a government to produce loads of stuff, there is a good argument for the idea that a magical printing press would easily dominate non-magical equivalents for some time if not indefinetely.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Doc, I agree that there is no reason to assume a priori that magic must retard technological development (or vice versa). I do take exception, however, with your comments on the magical printing press. Your comparison is only valid if we make certain assumptions.

You say it "Wouldn't need as much maintenance..."
Why? You're assuming a magic system that does not require regular maintenance of spells. What if spells weaken over time and require regular re-casting? What if spells require some source of power which must be recharged on a regular basis?

"probably faster until you start to compare it with the really late model printing presses of this or the last century..."
Why? What if the magical printing press is based on a spell which can copy an entire book, but only works once per day? It copies one book instantaneously, but a regular printing press could manufacture dozens, hundreds, or possibly thousands in one day.

"only needs one guy or gal to create one even if it is an extraordinary guy..."
What if the magic system requires elaborate rituals to empower any permanent or independent spell effects? Ritual circles (composed of initiates, witches, mages, or whatever) are staples of literature.

"it's a much more easily perfectable technology than a non-magical one..."
I'm not sure I follow this one. If we assume magic works according to certain universal principles, as science does, why is magic more easily perfectable? Wouldn't magic researchers be as liable to go down blind alleys as scientific researchers? For that matter, wouldn't they be as likely to oppose anything new or revolutionary (relativity and quantum mechanics come to mind)?

"and it's undoubtably even easier to control than a normal printing press."
Remember the skit in Disney's Fantasia 2000 where Mickey, as a wizard's apprentice, floods the place? Again, we're assuming that magic is for some reason easier than technology, but it depends on the specifics of the magic system.

You'll note that I don't say that your observations are wrong, just that they make certain assumptions that may not be correct. As you suggest, "...find a theory for the scientific revolution that sounds appealing to you and work magic into it or out of it as suits your fancy." I agree completely: the prospective GM must first work out the basic principles of magic before he can determine its impact (or lack thereof) on technological development.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, I was just pointing out potential advantages, given that such a set of shelves would generally follow the maintenance free single creator route of most miscellaneous magical items and that it would work three times per day copying around 200 books per functioning. Which would follow the dynamics proposed earlier that a set of shelves would copy one book onto all blank books on the shelves with seven shelves and between 25-30 books per shelf.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

It may be cheaper to hire guys with shovels but golems are forever. Once the inital return on investment has been made back the golem keeps on going.

True, the golem keeps on going. But you'll probably have to wait many years or decades until you see a return on your investment.

And in the meantime, the person who has been hiring people with shovels has been making profit the whole time - money he can invest somewhere else, which brings him yet more money, and so on.

The business cycle of "guys with shovels" is a lot shorter - and this counts for a lot in fast-moving economies...

 

[David Argall]

Magic is technology

The question is a false one, produced by game considerations, not by the logic of magic. We like a game world without much, if any technology improvements. Indeed, even our science fiction games, where technology change should be a constant consideration, have very stable technology. Accordingly then, we take the idea that magic gets in the way of technology.

We also have a little false logic to draw on. There was magic in the days of low technology, and there is no magic in the days of high technology. Thus the 2 are not compatible. Of course, one problem is that there was no magic then either.

However, the basic problem is that magic is simply a form of technology. It is not blocking progress. It is merely a tool lying around. Without magic we get a car run by oil. With magic it's run by magic. Same sort of thing.

Our printing press inventor can make a better and better printing press. Our maker of a magic bookcase can make a better and better magic book case. No definite effect on progress.

 

[hong]

Clarke's 1st Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Clarke's 2nd Law: "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I prefer:

Hong's 1st law: "It's only the other people who are munchkins"

Hong's 2nd law: Thinking too hard about fantasy is bad"

Hong's 3rd law: "Any sufficiently widespread magic is indistinguishable from technology"


Hong "awaiting licensing/franchising/sponsorship deals" Ooi

 

[Sixchan]

I prefer:

Hong's 1st law: "It's only the other people who are munchkins"

Hong's 2nd law: Thinking too hard about fantasy is bad"

Hong's 3rd law: "Any sufficiently widespread magic is indistinguishable from technology"


Hong "awaiting licensing/franchising/sponsorship deals" Ooi

Hmm...mine have always been:

Six's 1st Law: "People who complain about munchkinism are just insecure about the size of their inventory/swords/character sheets"

Six's 2nd Law: "Thinking too hard about fantasy is fun, as long as you don't assume you are right"

Six's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently understood Magic is indestinguishable from Science"

Anyways...

Originally posted by Biggus Geekus
It may be cheaper to hire guys with shovels but golems are forever. Once the inital return on investment has been made back the golem keeps on going. As does a slightly modified wand of fireballs that can be used twice a day (no charge limit). So a 4th level sorceror can be sent out to the front lines to "soften" targets (possibly gunpowder depots?) before the rest of the army comes in to do the rest of the work.

So can a high level rogue with a match. The fact that people can sneak into Artillery Depots without magic in real life didn't stop it being used. And the High level sorcerors on the other side will most likely be protecting the Artillery Depots. Maybe with Anti-Magic fields.

Plus some summoned creatures have damage resistance that normal weapons just can't breach. Summoning a celestial/fiendish dire bear would require a cleric or wizard of 11th level. According to "da r00lz" that kind of power would be theoretically available in a large city of 12,000 - 25,000 people.

Enter the magical musket. Alternatively, enter the technological's 11th level Clerics and Wizards.

So our 11th level cleric answers the call from his queen, goes to the battlefield where the evil cannon-using army dwell and summons a celestial dire bear. In the meantime, the 4th level sorceror with the wand of fireballs has had the scouts report in.

Meanwhile, the 14th level Wizard who is the General on the other side in this Particular campaign has the camp watch report in. Perhaps the entire watch is fitted with Goggles of Detect Magic (which I accept would cost a hell of a lot). As is customary tactics against magical attacks (against which the Artillery Depot would be an obvious target), as the sun goes down, the anti magic field is fired up at the Artillery Depot and other magical targets.

At night, the attack begins! WHAM! WHAM! Two fireballs strike at the artillery from 200 feet (60 meters). True, cannon can fire from further away, but our clever sorceror has covered both of them with invisibility! On the first fireball, the cleric summons the bear and commands it to charge and attack the enemy.

And the Fireball hits the Antimagic Field and fizzles. Uh-oh. Guess they should have brought that Rogue with the Match.

By the time the second fireball has landed the bear has closed the distance and has possibly engaged the enemy. The sorceror and cleric head back while the dire bear attacks for 9 more rounds or so.

But sadly, they never get there, as the Wizards on watch start hitting them with spells. Meanwhile, this has woken the entire camp up, because alarwms are going off left right and centre. The covers are pulled off the spotlights (which have light spells cast on them) and aimed at the fleeing group. Now everyone can see them. the Archers take aim (Bows are still being used in the Technological side as guns suitable for sniping have not been developed, and someone trained with a bow is more deadly than the musket-wielding conscripts), and they are dead, dead, dead.

The bear has DR 10/+3 and SR 24 (the tech army has a 2nd level wizard that does her best against the mighty foe). The bear has 102 hit points and does a minium of 7 points of damage with its bite and 12 points of damage with it's mighty paws.

Which is not a problem because the Magical side forgot that magic is not inversely proportional to technology, and if the two armies were from areas of equal population, we could expect to have just as many mages and clerics on both sides. And don't forget the fighters, who are now closing in on the Bear or firing away with their bows or the high-level rogues, who are now flanking the bear and backstabbing it. Why does your side get all the casters? The Technological side has Magic and Technology. The Magical side just has Magic.

In under a minute the artillery position is routed, a total of 3 spells and two uses of a magic item are all that the magic-using army has expended.

Sadly, this was not to be, despite what the report predicted, and even if it had, I still don't fancy the Swordsmen that are against Musketmen in a Pitched Battle.