Higher than level 30?

[fireinthedust]

In a recent Ampersand, for this month's Dragon Magazine, Bill Slavisek mentions something about higher than level 30 games.

Now, my understanding is that 4e caps at level 30. Granted, one could do the math and presto, you get to Tiamat rather than stopping at Orcus. HOWEVER my impression was that a 30 level cap was supposed to be the highest one could get to with 4e, as a design philosophy.


I used to own Throne of Bloodstone. I have the 3e Epic Level Handbook. I realize that going past the highest levels of the game is a tradition, but in this case I think it's missing the point. High level back in the day fought deities, avatars, etc. What the Epic Levels of 4e are managing to do is just that. There aren't baddies that matter of that level, or they detract from the ones already present.
Paragon was the top for older editions, with Epic being the level beyond that. Epic essentially just took Paragon and went one step further, having the heroes fighting Orcus and other monsters who, in 3e, had various stats ranging from 28 to versions that could be used in 100 level games. Rather than just mind flayers and great wyrms, of course.

In the case of 4e, I don't see the point. This is what Epic already does. Anything more is simply "my character can beat up your character". I see it as eroding the structure in place rather than building on top of it. I also don't know that the Epic Levels have anywhere near enough material support for complete campaigns as it is, let alone another tier on top of it for... what?

Obviously, thoughts on this?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I hope...

that this semenar will be more about running at 29th and 30th level without latter upgrades...

the idea that now that you have meet your destiny you must change the world. Playing the game that at 30th beat orcus, now (still at 30) you quest to end the evil that is Tiamat... play 8-10 more games in your 30th level campaign...

at this point the PCs can become the world builders...they could alrady be gods...

maybe soem form of advancment not ties to level (and I don't mean like e6), maybe a whole new way to look at the world...

but it will probly be some scary 4th teir...but I can hope

 

[Piratecat]

My hope is that they'll find a way to add exciting gameplay without necessarily adding additional levels. I mean, here you are at literally the top of your game; more opportunities to stretch your capabilities a bit, without having to worry about 31st level, would be superb.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy fireinthedust!

In a recent Ampersand, for this month's Dragon Magazine, Bill Slavisek mentions something about higher than level 30 games.

Now, my understanding is that 4e caps at level 30. Granted, one could do the math and presto, you get to Tiamat rather than stopping at Orcus. HOWEVER my impression was that a 30 level cap was supposed to be the highest one could get to with 4e, as a design philosophy.

I think with minor tweaking the math can be scaled up. I am planning two new tiers (Legendary and Immortal) for my 4E Immortals Handbook. Though first I am going to release some Monster Books so that DMs will have enough monsters when they do decide to have epic and then even 31+ campaigns.

I used to own Throne of Bloodstone. I have the 3e Epic Level Handbook. I realize that going past the highest levels of the game is a tradition, but in this case I think it's missing the point. High level back in the day fought deities, avatars, etc. What the Epic Levels of 4e are managing to do is just that. There aren't baddies that matter of that level, or they detract from the ones already present.

Thats a valid point, however, its worth noting that D&D cosmology is (and has always been) vaguely capped at the Greater God strata of power. With a few possible 'unseen' exceptions...Lady of Pain, Tharizdun, 'The Serpent', AO.

So I think for normal games, having maybe the likes of Tiamat, Demogorgon and Vecna as the campaign ending bosses is the right choice.

If you do want to have a (Level 31+ 4E) campaign where the PCs are actual deities then the first thing you have to do is expand the current cosmology. Fortunately I already have that framework in place with my 3rd Edition Epic Bestiary.

Paragon was the top for older editions, with Epic being the level beyond that. Epic essentially just took Paragon and went one step further, having the heroes fighting Orcus and other monsters who, in 3e, had various stats ranging from 28 to versions that could be used in 100 level games. Rather than just mind flayers and great wyrms, of course.

In the case of 4e, I don't see the point. This is what Epic already does. Anything more is simply "my character can beat up your character". I see it as eroding the structure in place rather than building on top of it.

As I mentioned above, playing 31+ is going to need to pull back the great veil on how mortals perceive reality. Once you do that you open up the possibilities of what comes next. As well as simply more powerful foes I also have rules for taking on really big monsters, from Godzilla sized beasts, to mountain sized creatures like the Mokkurkalve and Typhon, and even planet sized monstrousities, like Algol and the Alklha. Also I have quick rules for battling vast armies, potentially millions strong.

I also don't know that the Epic Levels have anywhere near enough material support for complete campaigns as it is, let alone another tier on top of it for... what?

Totally agree with this last point, epic monsters are fairly sparse in 4E (unless you really like Dragons and Hydras). But thats something I'll be seeking to change with some 4E Bestiaries.

My guess is you need about 100 monsters (or 100 stat-blocks more accurately) covering any 10 level stretch to even give DMs a decent choice for campaigns.

Obviously, thoughts on this?

I was a bit disappointed in Monster Manual 2 that they didn't really include any new epic races (Djinn arguably in early 20s). I would have loved to have seen the Chaos Shards and Fell Taints as new epic foes.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Howdy fireinthedust!



I think with minor tweaking the math can be scaled up. I am planning two new tiers (Legendary and Immortal) for my 4E Immortals Handbook. Though first I am going to release some Monster Books so that DMs will have enough monsters when they do decide to have epic and then even 31+ campaigns.

if that book is balanced, you just made a sale...whe it is avalible I will check it out...

If you do want to have a (Level 31+ 4E) campaign where the PCs are actual deities then the first thing you have to do is expand the current cosmology. Fortunately I already have that framework in place with my 3rd Edition Epic Bestiary.

I personaly always remove the idea of "gods made everyhitng" so that there is always a bigger fish...

As I mentioned above, playing 31+ is going to need to pull back the great veil on how mortals perceive reality. Once you do that you open up the possibilities of what comes next. As well as simply more powerful foes I also have rules for taking on really big monsters, from Godzilla sized beasts, to mountain sized creatures like the Mokkurkalve and Typhon, and even planet sized monstrousities, like Algol and the Alklha. Also I have quick rules for battling vast armies, potentially millions strong.

Totally agree with this last point, epic monsters are fairly sparse in 4E (unless you really like Dragons and Hydras). But thats something I'll be seeking to change with some 4E Bestiaries.

the op just totaly gave you the venue for the sale pitch...and I am buying it hook line and sinker...

My guess is you need about 100 monsters (or 100 stat-blocks more accurately) covering any 10 level stretch to even give DMs a decent choice for campaigns.

that is a good starting point...especialy since the higher you got he more elite and solos you run into...I don't think 100 stat blocks would be enought for heroic, but by epic yea...

I would have loved to have seen the Chaos Shards and Fell Taints as new epic foes.

I gotta disagree there...the fell taints are awsome becuse it allows abberations from day 1 (re skin the bullywoog and you can have some great fun)


so anyway...please tell us more of your ideas...

 

[Asmor]

People keep reading things that aren't there.

He didn't say "higher levels," he said "beyond level 30."

Maybe that means higher levels, maybe it doesn't. My money says it doesn't. It could mean continuing with the same characters after they've achieved their "immortality" or it could mean starting again from level 1 in the same campaign with new characters dealing with the aftermath of your old campaign.

 

[No Name]

Bleh!

I hope they don't add more levels. Having more stuff to do at 30 (for the players who aren't ready to retire their character just yet) would be cool I guess. I'd at least take a look at it. But having characters higher levels than say Orcus or Vecna just doesn't seem right, I'd leave that book in the bookstore. Is there really a demand for something like that?

 

[aurance]

WotC needs to fix some of the awfully broken level 30 capstone abilities of Epic Destinies, and the players need to get out of the "It's level 30, who cares if it's broken?" mentality before there can be any meaningful gaming at 30+.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I would be a lot happier at epic level play if so many abilities did not come just at 30. Instead the characters should have msot abilities by 27 or 28, nd have a couple of levels to paly with their massive toys.

Now it is like, "Well, you can now make that level 30 uber-XXX item, and have a good shot at killing Orcus and coupld enjoy causing havok all over the world, and shaping it to your image, but, hey, the game is over. Pick up that 3d6 and get to rolling."

 

[Hereticus]

Approaching 30th level should be like approaching the speed of light.

The closer you get, the harder it is to get there.

If I were running an Epic tier group, there would be more game sessions than usual between levels.