History Buffs: What if?

Xeriar

First Post
Corey said:

* The Babylonians eliminated Judah. (597 BC Nebuchadnezzar executes Jehoiachin and a large number of Judah’s population following a revolt. Later, Zedekiah, placed on the throne by Nebuchadnezzar, also revolts. 586 BC Soloman’s Temple razed and large numbers of Jews executed. Some may have been taken east, but they are lost to history.) There was no Jesus. (Possibly replace with Appollonius of Tyana?)

More likely Mithraism. It would be difficult to say what exact form the religion would take were there no messiah myth coming out of Isreal supporting Attis or Yeshua - but there were a lot of God-men legends, with the two most popular being Mithra and Jesus (obviously).

Eventually the religions welded together (at least that's my take on it) - and Mithraism was declared heresy after Constantine's conversion to Christianity.

They were even more patriarchal than ancient Christians, with women not even being allowed into the faith. Mithraism was extremely popular amongst the Roman Army, however, and his declaring so much of his army heretic was one of many things that Did Not Help Rome.

---

I'd say Mithraism and some sort of Goddess religion would dominate.
 

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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Fenris said:
And no Jesus, what about Islam?, Does the loss of the other monothesistic religions affect the panthesitic Arabs?

Yes - the rise of Islam was pretty much predicated on the other two since they all pretty much developed in concert with each other (and share the same base diety).

I don't think that Northern Europe actually gets off so easily as to leave Britain et al free. They are certainly not part of a Roman Empire. However there are Four major powers vying for political and economic dominance, including a few military exchanges which drags in Germanic mercenaries and other Trade Partners. There are also of course the Carthagian Trading Ports in the North Sea which gives them an edge in Trade.
In this way Northern Europe becomes Hellenized -Romanized- Carthagised by default especially with the rise and spread of Mithraism.

Babylon pretty much leaves Europe and tends Eastward instead across India and makes contact with the Chin. It establishes a Pax Babylonica which allows early East-West exchange of technology (that was faciltated through the Pax Mongolia in our own reality)

The Religions remain Polytheistic posibly with a few 'major cults' tending towards Monotheism. Science and Mathematics are much more advanced (because there is no Dark Age and Babylonian Sciences aren't lost)
 


Xeriar

First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
Your points, in order:

1) Yes, but now that I think about it, a Rome that doesn't even conquer Greece probably doesn't have all that Persian influence. Rome simply doesn't look that far east in this scenario. Ergo no widespread Mithraic mystery cult.

Oi, right, forgot that. Wasn't there a more Roman godman myth though?

Still derived from Mystery Religions though, still from Greece, hmm.

Too much Etruscan influence would likely mean Rome would just collapse.

3) Without a strong Rome, all kinds of Easterling invaders from the Scythians to the Huns to the Alans to the Mongols, etc. have probably penetrated much farther and done much more damage than we saw historically. I still wouldn't expect them to be a serious threat to Britannia, though -- or whatever you're calling it in this scenario. But it probably would have produced a very different cultural outlook amongst the Europeans than the one we got.

I suspect that the European 'barbarians' would be significantly stronger, however, and would provide more of a buffer. Rome covered such a huge area at its height that it placated much of the population (not having to build walls and all).

4) Too true -- it was Islam that united the Arab tribes in the first place.

Islam didn't come about until later - though its roots had certainly developed allowing the philosophy to take hold.

In all, I'd suggest you check out the this book and read through some of the earlier chapters at the very least. The problem is, though, that you're introducing too many changes. At some point, you can't expect to come up with anything that really resembles the world we know anymore, because the implications of the other changes are too great. I'd start with a smaller change -- Rome and Carthage stalemate in the second Punic War, and work forward from there, plotting out all the changes that would entail. Many of the ones you've put out there would probably be results of that anyway, but it wouldn't look exactly the same.

I can only agree.
 

Enkhidu

Explorer
Corey said:
Given this list of changes to history, what do you think the effects would be on the Mediterranean world and more importantly the British islands, assume the current date is 600 AD:

* The Romans fought to a stalemate with Carthage during the Second Punic War. Currently, the Carthaginian Empire controls much of North Africa and Iberia. For the sake of security and trade in the eastern Mediterranean the two powers cease open fighting, the Iberus River in Iberia is the dividing line.

* Rome never conquered Greece. (197 BC-Philip V defeats Titus Quinctius Flaminius at the Battle of Cynoscephalae in Thessaly.)

* The Babylonians eliminated Judah. (597 BC Nebuchadnezzar executes Jehoiachin and a large number of Judah’s population following a revolt. Later, Zedekiah, placed on the throne by Nebuchadnezzar, also revolts. 586 BC Soloman’s Temple razed and large numbers of Jews executed. Some may have been taken east, but they are lost to history.) There was no Jesus. (Possibly replace with Appollonius of Tyana?)

* Magic exists. It is uncommon and, with the exception of hedge-wizards selling love potions and amulets to protect against the evil eye, viewed with suspicion. Its ancient traditions have their deepest roots in Persian and Egyptian culture. Today, Greece dominates arcane wisdom.

* Approximately a century ago explorers from the west visited Ireland, Briton, and Iberia. A plague that spread in their wake killed half of Europe’s population. This culture claims descent from an earlier civilization whose homeland was in the south and sank into the ocean. They have established some trading posts in Europe.

Your ideas are appreciated,
Corey

OK, let's look at your points in a timeline:

* The Babylonians eliminated Judah. (597 BC Nebuchadnezzar executes Jehoiachin and a large number of Judah’s population following a revolt. Later, Zedekiah, placed on the throne by Nebuchadnezzar, also revolts. 586 BC Soloman’s Temple razed and large numbers of Jews executed. Some may have been taken east, but they are lost to history.) There was no Jesus. (Possibly replace with Appollonius of Tyana?)

Say goodbye to two of the religions of the book. No Judaism (as the entire people are eradicated), and therefore no Christianity. Islam may still have a chance to arise, though it will likely take a different form (as Islam traces its roots to Abraham through his son Ishmael). Note that no Christianity means no unifying religion in Rome later on, which would effect a lot of things.

* The Romans fought to a stalemate with Carthage during the Second Punic War. Currently, the Carthaginian Empire controls much of North Africa and Iberia. For the sake of security and trade in the eastern Mediterranean the two powers cease open fighting, the Iberus River in Iberia is the dividing line.

* Rome never conquered Greece. (197 BC-Philip V defeats Titus Quinctius Flaminius at the Battle of Cynoscephalae in Thessaly.)

We're going to take these together as they do similar things to Rome. With Carthage still the strongest sea-power in the Mediterranean (and, indeed on the Atlantic coasts), Rome cannot expand directly westward, only northwestward into Gaul. Because so many of the successful generals during Rome's expansion came from Iberia (even a few emporers!), it is not improbable that Rome would have failed against the Gauls in that endeavor (mainly because they could no longer match the numbers of the armies the Franks and Gauls could muster).

Likewise, with Greece unsubdued, they cannot reach eastward along the coast, only northeastward into the plains of the Slavic peoples. It is probable that Greece would have moved to stop their annexation of Dacia, however, and Rome would not have been able to raise legios from that area.

Therefore, its possible that Rome would not have been able to expand too much farther than present day Italy. Likely, it would have remained a Republic with a small but extremely strong and fierce army of landholders. It's possible that by 600, it would still survive if it did not fall to a stronger power.

Now comes the fun part...

Mediterranean Europe is divided into several sovereign Empires in an uneasy peace. This makes it possible, in about 400 CE (no Jesus, remember?), for Alaric and his Huns to sweep across Europe, conquering as he goes.

[Historically, Alaric was stopped by a Roman general of the Western Empire named Aetius, who managed to play Alaric off of Theoderic and the Goths and eventually stop the Huns with the threat of a final showdown with the combined forces of Rome and its western allies. This force would not exist in the timeline you are supposing. By the way, Alaric almost won anyway, and went as far as minting his own currency at one time.]

Now, Alaric would most likely be assasinated at the height of his power (likely by a relative), but not before he subdued the Goths in middle-europe. Its possible the Huns reached the coast of France before they disintigrated into warring tribes again, though it is doubtful that the Huns (who's strength was in cavalry) would be able to cross the English channel and make inroads into England.

If you'd like, I can continue with some suppositions about Britain, the Anglo-Saxon invasion, Celts, etc - but for now this is getting too long. Hope it helps!
 

daTim

First Post
Another thing that might greatly influence the world would be the more advanced technology and schools of thought. With the Great Libraries, and Greek Societies still intact, much of the knowedge that was lost in the fall of Rome, Egypt and Greece would still be around. One of my College teachers said that the loss of the Great Library set back western technology over 200 years.

Also, in the coming years there would be no crusades or dark ages to further set us back. Dark ages for us, Crusades for the easterners.

Another thing, firearms may be introduced into Europe through the Babylonian tradeing in India and China. That too could radically change the face of not only warfare, but life in the west in general.
 

bwgwl

First Post
if Mithraism doesn't take hold in a Rome devoid of Hellenistic and Eastern influences, then perhaps the cult of Sol Invictus (the Unconquered Sun) would become the prominent "monotheistic" religion of the Roman lands.

and i agree with the others who say that no Judaism + no Christianity = no Islam.
 
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Xeriar said:
Oi, right, forgot that. Wasn't there a more Roman godman myth though?

Still derived from Mystery Religions though, still from Greece, hmm.
Original Mars, before he picked up a lot of Ares baggage could play a similar role, maybe.
 

Corey

First Post
Joshua Dyal said:


I'm also not sure what you meant by the last tick-point. Explorers from the mainland and the British Isles certainly did go back and forth for centuries and centuries before 600 AD. Are you trying to say that Ireland is settled by Atlanteans or something?

I'm drawing on Graham Hancock et al's assertion -without comment on its accuracy:) - that an advanced civilization was based in pre-iced Antarctica.

The notion serves two purposes:
1) It allows me to add a strange but distant culture that I can totally make up, after re-reading Plato's stuff on it.

2) It suits my sense of irony (and desire for instability) to have the "What you can't survive the common cold?" diseases go the other way.

Thanks,
Corey
 

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