Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

[Raven Crowking]

Long Term injuries (broken bones, torn ligaments, etc.) have never been a part of D&D.

You should take another look at 1e and 2e. Early D&D lacked mechanics that determined absolutely when things happened, or even what their effects were, yet they happened regularly enough. I suspect that there was a long term injury in D&D by the end of Gary's third session.

In 1e, there are magic items that cause specific long term injuries, monsters that cause specific long term injuries, and a lot of free-wheeling. Grimtooth appeared in the 1e era, and certainly included many long-term injuries. Ravens in 1e have, what, a 10% chance on plucking out an eye on a successful hit? How is that not a long-term injury? A sword of sharpness could sever your leg. Again, pretty long-term. The effects of the same are left to the participants' imaginations and the DM's judgement.

To some extent, 2e codified some long-term injuries, as well as how to cause them, in The Complete Fighters' Handbook and the Players' Option series.

I have on occasion--when the situation seemed particularly damaging/difficult, used some long-term injuries for characters--both players and NPC's.

See? Long-term injuries in D&D.

Man, this thread makes me feel like an anomaly.

Don't worry too much, KM. You are an anomaly, and that's a good thing! In fact, you are an awesome anomaly!


RC

 

[roguerouge]

Thanks to this thread, I'm going to make my character for Sunday's game a Warlord based on Dr. Cox from Scrubs. "Suck it up, princess" will be about the best they can hope for.

Can't wait.

I urge you to consider whether this character concept will have the same short half life of the character archetypes of the anti-social anti-hero and the jackass half-orc barbarian, which, in my experience, are amusing at real tables for 1-3 sessions. At the very least, you should run this past your DM and fellow players. I know that I'd have little patience for such a character type. Being told regularly that my hero is a wuss is not something I want in my DnD experience. YMMV.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I urge you to consider whether this character concept will have the same short half life of the character archetypes of the anti-social anti-hero and the jackass half-orc barbarian, which, in my experience, are amusing at real tables for 1-3 sessions. At the very least, you should run this past your DM and fellow players. I know that I'd have little patience for such a character type. Being told regularly that my hero is a wuss is not something I want in my DnD experience. YMMV.

If you check out my warlord thread, I detail playing a Tiefling warlord exactly like this. He died but all five of the other characters in game and players out of game wanted me to bring him back - paying to have it done even out of love/respect for the character. I thought the "suck it up, Princess", "don't make me come over there just to kick your sorry ass off the ground for you", "c'mon boys harden the **** up" style would get a little tiring but it obviously hasn't. If done with a sense of irony as well as a genuine care and affection for your "team or crew", then everyone is more than happy to cop a dressing-down from their warlord leader - and even becomes something they look forward to. A nice +5 bonus to hit or a slab of bonus hit points or free attacks every encounter most probably sweetens the words too.

As for the whole hit point edition debate thing (this is the 4th major thread on this) and nothing has been said in here on either side that hasn't already been said on the previous three threads.

On the podcast, Mike pretty much said as a baseline, "As a DM, don't oversell your damage". Jeremy backs up something I said in the second thread that if you know divine healing is available, you can go to town a little more with descriptions without breaking verisimilitude but then Mike said as a baseline standard operating procedure, don't describe damage that cannot be fixed by a warlord. Only if the character is on 0 healing surges and they get knocked deep into the negatives can you go for some A-grade descriptive damage.

Personally, I don't like the system but since the previous threads, I've kind of moved on. I'll respect anyone's opinion though who says that it is either ridiculous or absurd. To be honest guys I learned along with others from the previous threads that on this issue, it is easier just to agree to disagree. Somebody's nightsoil is another's bacon, mileage varying and all that.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Shadeydm]

Hit points and healing are the only thing in 4e that bugged me and my group. While I understand the reasoning behind healing surges and hit points, someone resting for 6-8 hours and getting up fine bothered us. 4e had no way of implementing long-term injuries or severe bodily damage. Plus, the abstraction of the cleric/paladin vs. warlord healing bugged us.

So we implemented a SIMPLE fix that allowed for a distinction between magical vs nonmagical healing, and didn't require us to monkey with established hit point values, the bloodied condition, and which satisfied our simulationist AND narrativist gaming styles. Here it is:

As an example, per 4e rules, a 1st level fighter has 15 + Con score hit points, and gains 6 hit points per level after that. Our system says a 1st level fighter with a 16 Con has 15 hit points, and 16 wound points. A 10th level fighter with a 20 Con would have 69 hit points, and 20 wound points.

1. When damaged, hit points are shaved off first, and when they are depleted, wound points are deducted.
2. When a character hits 0 wound points, he is unconscious.
3. Characters die at their negative Con score, or on three failed death saves.
4. As a character gains levels, he gains hit points, but only gains wound points if is Con score increases.
5. Hit points can be cured by a warlord or cleric, but only magical healing can quickly restore wound points (equal to the healing surge value). Hit points can be regained by healing surges with a short rest, but natural healing only allows one wound point healed per day of bedrest with a successful DC 10 + 1/2 level Endurance check. (If a trained healer is looking after a recovering character (DC 10 + wound point damage Heal check to treat), he can regain two wound points per day with a DC 10 Endurance check).
6. Finally, while suffering from wound point damage, a character can be at their bloodied value at best.

Hit points in our system represent luck, adrenaline, divine fortune, willpower, minor bruises, scrapes, pain tolerance, etc. Wound points represent actual physical injury, which takes time to recover from. A character still has the same total number of "hit points" as the core rules, and the bloodied value is the same, but some of those points represent real physical damage that take time to recover from.

So far, this system has worked really well for us, with almost no rules tweaking. It satisfies our simulationist tastes, and makes getting severely wounded have consequences that take time to recover from.

This actually sounds like a pretty good bandage for the system. If I ever do decide to run 4E (instead of just playing) I will have to give this some strong consideration. Thanks!

 

[roguerouge]

Only if the character is on 0 healing surges and they get knocked deep into the negatives can you go for some A-grade descriptive damage.

How have DMs found this practice at their gaming tables? As a 3E DM, I never have to keep track of what spells my players have when describing damage in combat, so this whole concept seems like an extra burden to me. Perhaps I'm wrong: do you find it fun? does it add something to keep track of this stuff while you run combats?

 

[Raven Crowking]

On the podcast, Mike pretty much said as a baseline, "As a DM, don't oversell your damage". Jeremy backs up something I said in the second thread that if you know divine healing is available, you can go to town a little more with descriptions without breaking verisimilitude but then Mike said as a baseline standard operating procedure, don't describe damage that cannot be fixed by a warlord. Only if the character is on 0 healing surges and they get knocked deep into the negatives can you go for some A-grade descriptive damage.

For what it's worth, this is Schoedinger's Wounding that they are trying to sell -- you don't know what the hit point loss was caused by until you know how it was restored.

Of all of the various options outlined in the previous thread on this topic, SW is perhaps the one that I find least satsifying.

I also recall, on the other thread, being told that SW wasn't how the system was intended to be used. At least this podcast clears that up. SW is not a misreading of the system.


RC

 

[Fifth Element]

One could read the advice in the 4e DMG and come to a different conclusion. Or, for that matter, all the talk of what was "unfun" during the design phase.

One could read it that way, if one were inclined to be harsh and pessimistic. Thus my previous post.

 

[Raven Crowking]

One could read the advice in the 4e DMG and come to a different conclusion. Or, for that matter, all the talk of what was "unfun" during the design phase.

One could read it that way, if one were inclined to be harsh and pessimistic. Thus my previous post..

One could read it that way, if one were inclined to attempt to discover how it was intended, unless one had a particular agenda to promote. I am not sure how to come to the conclusion that "X is unfun" but also that "X is fun". If you begin with a belief that "X is unfun" and "Y is fun", it is hardly harsh or pessimistic for me to say that your game promotes Y rather than X.

Saying the opposite, IMHO, would be harsh and pessimistic. It would be saying that you failed in your design goals.

A lot of things got cut from the game because they were "unfun", even though some of them were (arguably) much of the fun for some people. 4e, like every version of D&D before it, promotes some Y over X. And we have the benefit of the designers telling us what they thought was fun and unfun. To a better degree than any other edition, we know what X and Y are.

It isn't "harsh and pessimistic" at all.



RC

 

[I'm A Banana]

I like Gothmog's fix. It's a bit of a hassle, but it's better than trying to be crazily uncertain about the damage.

 

[Obryn]

I urge you to consider whether this character concept will have the same short half life of the character archetypes of the anti-social anti-hero and the jackass half-orc barbarian, which, in my experience, are amusing at real tables for 1-3 sessions. At the very least, you should run this past your DM and fellow players. I know that I'd have little patience for such a character type. Being told regularly that my hero is a wuss is not something I want in my DnD experience. YMMV.

It's a one-shot.

I'm the DM.

He's a great player.

I think it rocks, and he knows his players better than I do.

So, um... I think we're good.

-O