Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

Not sure what 5th Element's on about, but Raven, you'll be getting XP from me in the morning... once my ability to do so on this site has had its "healing surge." Perhaps my computer is telling the administrators to "suck it up princess." I'm sure that they will be inspired by that.
 

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In the second, I can certainly understand how that description matters and therefor why certain ways of healing don't seem right. Do the people who have problems with what hit points are or what healing surges are play like the second example? I may be way off base here in my analysis - but I am curious to find out.
Most games I've been in are mostly like the first example, though the DM may add a bit of style two whenever a combatant (PC or NPC) finally drops. Many people do something like this, I think. The problem with 4E is that, particularly for the PCs, is that when a combatant goes down, he doesn't necessarily stay down, and that detailed description by the DM of the orc's brutal hammer blow to the side of your head that dropped you is negated by a Warlord shouting "Suck it up, Princess!", rousing the character from an unconscious state where he was rolling death saves to up and ready to keep fighting.

Not that I personally have any problem with that.

It's funny. I think if the Warlord class (and upcoming Bard) didn't exist, and the only healing was from divine powers, this wouldn't be a big deal. But because 4E decided to create more options for what type of characters can perform the "healer" function in the party, its caused this cognitive dissonance in some people regarding this aspect of the game.

Plus, this is the Internet. Even people who play exactly as you describe in scenario 1 will sometimes engage in esoteric arguments about things which don't even come up in their own games, or most games, but just the fact that they can imagine some weird, corner-case scenario that might possibly occur sets their teeth on edge.
 


It's not that I can't bring myself to imagine how wounds aren't entirely physical, and that there is a psychological aspect to them that can be shaken off. I do not suffer from a lack of imagination...if I did, I would seriously need to rethink my hobby. :)

The thing is, I don't want hit points to work like that. I don't want them to have anything to do with emotion or psychology. I like 'em to be all about cuts and bruises and injury, not feelings and attitude. Now, sure, I could force myself to view them differently, but why should I? I want the game to fit my imagination...not the other way around.
 


The thing is that even 1st edition DMG had luck, moral and divine intervention as explanations for HP.

It also had variable explanations for successful saving throws depending on your class. The thief would dodge, the fighter would just endure, the cleric would be protected by the divine and the mage would have some off-the-record arcane defense.

The 4e way is not new by any means. It's been with D&D at least since 1st edition.
 

I suppose it's because they are not fighting preconceived (and ingrained over almost a decade) notions of what hit-points are.

No. That's precisely the point I wanted to make - that veterens aren't fighting against preconcieved and ingrained notions of what hit points are. They are fighting against preconcieved and ingrained notions of what PnP role-playing is like.

Fourth edition is in many ways nothing like what they are used to from a PnP combat system. Keep in mind that for most of us D&D was at the very far end of the spectrum of realism vs. playability, and not on the realism end. D&D was already about as far along the 'damage is represented abstractly' spectrum as we'd ever played in a PnP game, and when we talked about the deficiencies in D&D compared to other systems it was never 'D&D uses to concrete of a mechanism for representing wounds'. In fact, D&D's use of an almost purely abstract system for representing wounds was the subject of much humorous ancedotes and jokes - sometimes given goodnaturedly and sometimes very much not.

As a result, veterens grope around trying to explain to people what's wrong with getting even more abstract in terms that they hope are understood. So they say things like 'too video gamey' or 'too manga', even those these aren't really good analogies. What they mean is really something like, "D&D was already the game system I turned to when I wanted abstract damage systems and really it was at the far end of what I could tolerate. Fourth edition went more uber with the abstractness, and that's more than I at least can tolerate."

So when someone comes along and says, "Some people are so exasperating for not understanding that hit points are abstract." and seem to imply that the reason people don't like the new hit point model is pure ignorance, frankly, they come across to me as.... well... telling you what I really think of comments like that would violate the policy at EnWorld against personal comments. Suffice to say that I think that they are far wrong on the matter, that such comments are laughable in the light of the 1st edition DMG, and would be advised to ask more questions about and make fewer statements of other peoples opinions.

And frankly, that goes for mischaracterization and exagerration by the WotC developers as well.

We went through all of this prior to 4e coming out at great length. I don't imagine anyone's opinion is going to change now. I tried to like 4e. I set down to think about creating a dungeon for 4e. I couldn't manage to get excited enough about it to put in the work. I haven't picked up a 4e book since then, and have a hard time imagining me playing it even casually. It has nothing to do with failing to understand that hit points are abstract.
 

The thing is, I don't want hit points to work like that. I don't want them to have anything to do with emotion or psychology. I like 'em to be all about cuts and bruises and injury, not feelings and attitude.

I'm the opposite, I think having them be about cuts and bruises and injury leads to silly situations, and lack of options.

I get to be selfish and have it the way I've always pictured it in my head finally. I also now get an option to heal in some way other then magic.

yay. :)
 


Celebrim, I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, or not, but I am failing to see where we disagree. My statement that you quoted is, certainly, only subset of the greater combat schema change you mention; but I don't see how it's contradicts anything you're saying.

What I claim, though, and stick to, is that among 4E-adopters, the change has some hurdles because we have spent 8 years "grooving" ourselves into the philosophical underpinnings of another game with the same name. I merely posited that these hurdles are not obstructions to first-time players. I do not address the issue of aesthetics at all.
 

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