Hit Points?

Connorsrpg

Adventurer
OK, from the forum where we are creating 'lists' Hit Points came up for 4E.

I would rather discussions go elsewhere - so here were are :)

What should Hit Points look like in the new edition?

For my view, I would like to see less. Quoting the 27hp 1st level kobold from other thread here. To deal with blown out hps, damage had to get blown out and that made weapon damage meaningless in my mind.

I would certainly like to tone that down a little. Especially for low level critters - I found I just kept using more and more minions (which I love, but they rarely have the cool powers of other builds) or minionising many monsters.

I would like the PCs hps toned down too. I like low levels being dangerous. We/I also have always preferred to roll hps (just as we have always rolled stats), but I can understand others wanting a static number. What about a compromise. You roll this die OR take this many hps (toned down from 4E ;)).

Anyway, there are a few of my thoughts - no you guys go for it...B-)
 

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For any hit point system, I'd like to see a lower number of hit points and concrete effects for their loss (which has been done but not nearly enough). Ideally vp/wp or something of that niche.

*The basic goal of a health system needs to be that anyone can die, but that some people probably won't. And that battle has consequences.*

More importantly, I want a system constructed with a (user-friendly) optional add-on for tracking injuries to specific parts of the body with specific effects. I want to be able to break my PCs' legs.

Why?

Scars are cool. Overcoming crippling injuries to win a battle is epic. Watching someone bleed to death while still conscious is dramatic. Chronic injuries, infections, and, most importantly pain, are emotionally powerful.

Some people want to rest and get on with bashing in the dungeon door, and that's fine, but I want to see this style of play supported in this new inclusive world.
 

I like 4e HP as is. I don't want low HP, especially at low level. It leads to ridiculous outcomes likes house cats threatening adventurers.

I want to be heroic and tough right from level 1. And no death spiral mechanics except as an optional sidebar maybe.
 

I don't expect player hp to change too much from 4e. 1st level characters that are easily one shot was something I was happy to see gone. Although I could see optional gritty "zero level" rules, for those that prefer that experience.

I could definitely see monster hp decreasing significantly though. Too many monster hps can cause fights to slog. There were plenty of 4e house rules such as 50% hp, 66% xp, for that reason. I could definitely see monsters shifting toward generally being a bit more like glass cannons (high damage, low hp).
 

I'm on board with Ahnehnois here. Especially this: "The basic goal of a health system needs to be that anyone can die, but that some people probably won't. And that battle has consequences." Yes, yes, yes.

The game should focus (IMHO, etc.) on keeping hit points small and I'd strongly prefer the scaling of hit points to be slow or non-existent. Let slowly growing defenses and attacks handle most of the raw power scaling, and breadth and/or depth of character abilities do the rest.

I'd prefer if hit points and wounds were kept separate, with hit points being strongly abstract (basically anything a person can definitely fight past) and wounds, which actually kill or disable, more concrete. (I know and fully accept many people have no problems with purely abstract hit points for everything, but I find it jarring. I'd rather not have the "what do hp mean?" conversation, we all know the talking points. I do think building a very light wound system into core can really help modularization, without being too distracting for those who have no problem with only hp.) I envision wounds incurring when reduced to 0 hit points. This should be a fairly constant threat, but one that can be staved off with party effort round to round, so that much of combat is a dance around taking or avoiding wounds while doling them out. I don't favor death spirals, certainly not as a default. Instead, I would make most wounds go away at the end of a rest, fewer at the end of an extended rest (or equivalent), and occasionally some that are difficult to remove or effectively permanent. In general, I think during the average combat most party members should take a few "rest" wounds, a few should take a single "extended rest" wound, and a few times an adventure someone should take something more significant (assuming survival). The fluctuations are what keeps everyone on their toes, unless someone cuts off their toes.

Furthermore, additional rider effect of wounds can be simple (nothing) to detailed (broken left hand with appropriate penalties), with a campaign norm selected by the DM, and exceptions used as needed (e.g. the effects of some iconic monster attacks).

I absolutely want to keep 4e's trajectory of non-exclusive healing, but give each class its own way of dealing with this system. I have a philosophy that the major use of magic, or at least utility magic, is to adjust the typical "fast, cheap, or good (choose two)" considerations for the situation at hand, where the mundane method sets the baseline. Therefore, while mundane healing of wounds might be cheap and good, in-combat magical healing is fast and good, and ritual healing splits the difference. Fighters and bards, on the other hand, settle on fast and cheap, letting themselves or others temporarily ignore wounds, and so on. Thus, a cleric's "cure light wounds" in the heat of combat is an event, and "cure critical wounds" might count as close to a miracle, but characters normally fight and function without it. So no one has to be a heal-bot, but for many classes it is possible to go in that direction if they don't mind the opportunity cost.

In addition, some classes or characters might focus on hit points rather than wounds, and vice versa, but everyone interacts with both at some level. Among its virtues, this can support flavor distinctions that have been problematic to some (like me) in earlier editions. For example, a cleric of Pelor might concentrate on instant wound-healing abilities, while a cleric of Gruumsh might give allies lots of hit points (filling them with hate, for example) but not have the ability to perform instant wound healing. The injured don't deserve it in Gruumsh's eye. So in their own way each is meeting the mechanical needs of "healing" in combat. And outside of combat, someone in the cleric of Gruumsh's party probably has the mundane healing skill, enabling that very evil party to continue on like any other.
 

I would keep it as simple as possible. I would actually just rename the WP/VP system and use it.

Basically, everyone gets WP equal to their constitution, then hit points (depending on level). They take damage off of their hit points first, once that is gone they take them off of wound points (which represent actual wounds) or on criticals (optionally).

And then every day their hit points would come back (but their WP would restore slowly).

Or heck, just get rid of WP and just use Constitution - have it temporarily go down.
 

I prefer lower hps than 4e offers, that's for sure. My ideal formula seems to be something like "A reasonable number at 1st level and more some, but not all, levels as you advance."
 

Or heck, just get rid of WP and just use Constitution - have it temporarily go down.
That is a great idea. Why separate off wp?

Even better, why not make it possible to damage the other ability scores with severe wounds? This has been an option for high-level rogues and stuff (most notably crippling strike), but I think it makes more sense as a function of the attack, not the attacker.
 

Low hit point numbers.

Low damage numbers.

Dying is super hard or impossible fro PCs in general (sans TPK), with lingering wounds being the negative re-enforcement for getting you butt kicked.
 

That is a great idea. Why separate off wp?

Even better, why not make it possible to damage the other ability scores with severe wounds? This has been an option for high-level rogues and stuff (most notably crippling strike), but I think it makes more sense as a function of the attack, not the attacker.

Ability score damage and/or buffs and the resulting cascade of number changes across the character sheet is one 3e "innovation" that I'm glad 4e jettisoned. I occasionally play PF and it drives me nuts.

That being said, it'd be cool to see that as an option for people who like it, but I'll pass on it. If their goal is to make a simple core game with add-ons, I'd be stunned to see a mechanic like that in the core system.

The core game should be classic vanilla D&D style abstract HP. Save all the funky alternate damage systems as modular add-ons.
 

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