Hit Points

[Nahat Anoj]

I would love to see a L&L article or series of articles that discussed the history of hitpoints in D&D and really delved deep into what hitpoints represent. This is an important topic, because the ease in which hitpoints are healed not only speaks to what they represent but also seems to be a major point of contention amongst the various editions. Does anyone else feel similarly?

How would you handle hitpoints in the new version of D&D? Would people be alright if they came down definitively for one interpretation or another (even if the interpretation differs from your own)? Does anyone think they'll present multiple interpretations of hitpoints?

 

[kitsune9]

When I was younger and each time I read the rules for an rpg rules, I try to apply a serious sense of logic to whatever concept they discussed. Nowadays, I don't much care for the rationale and just go with it. Hit points is one of those things that I no longer think about what it truly represents because I've been around them for so many years that it's now just a part of nature for me.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

When I was younger and each time I read the rules for an rpg rules, I try to apply a serious sense of logic to whatever concept they discussed. Nowadays, I don't much care for the rationale and just go with it. Hit points is one of those things that I no longer think about what it truly represents because I've been around them for so many years that it's now just a part of nature for me.

I am pretty much of this iview also but I suspect that originally hit points were in some way related to numbers of minis removed as casualties in a wargame.

 

[mmadsen]

We've been discussing hit points quite a bit on the forum, and we've been contrasting them with D&D's other major mechanic for handling mortal threats: save-or-die.

To summarize, a save-or-die mechanic is more realistic for most threats, because just about anything can kill you -- or can fail to kill you -- but that realistic feature is unwelcome in a game where the protagonists are supposed to survive dozens and dozens of such mortal threats.

If you want reliable survival, you need a buffer of hit points.

D&D's designers made the odd decision to make most threats go through that thick buffer of hit points, while other threats bypass that buffer completely and force a single save.

The other odd decision is to give everyone the plot-protection that comes with hit points -- or the reliable mortality of having very few hit points. Unlike ordinary people and animals, D&D characters and monsters react quite predictably to getting wounded.

My conclusion is that hit points should be divorced from physical toughness completely, and they should become fate points (or whatever name you prefer for intangible plot-protection points). If you're tough but not important, you get a Fort save to survive an attack. If you're tough and important, you get a Fort save, and you can apply fate points to boost it if you fail.

More importantly, you should be able to apply fate points to any save you fail -- Ref save, Will save, Fort save, whatever.

 

[harpy]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I've been working on a history of hit point essay. It's not where I want it at, but here is what all of the editions had to say on the matter. 1e and 3e are the editions that go into the most depth on describing what hit points are meant to represent, and push the abstract nature of them. Pre-1e seems to just run on the assumption of earlier abstract layers of wargames and doesn't belabor the point.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2e, 3.5, Pathfinder and 4e are in between. They are pretty concise, just touching on the broader abstraction, but not going into much detail to illustrate it.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Evolution of Hit Points through the Editions:[/FONT]

Gamespy Interview with Arneson

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]GameSpy: So you started playing Chainmail using the fantasy rules. How did you have to change the rules around? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Arneson: We had to change it almost after the first weekend. Combat in Chainmail is simply rolling two six-sided dice, and you either defeated the monster and killed it … or it killed you. It didn't take too long for players to get attached to their characters, and they wanted something detailed which Chainmail didn't have. The initial Chainmail rules was a matrix. That was okay for a few different kinds of units, but by the second weekend we already had 20 or 30 different monsters, and the matrix was starting to fill up the loft. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I adopted the rules I'd done earlier for a Civil War game called Ironclads that had hit points and armor class. It meant that players had a chance to live longer and do more. They didn't care that they had hit points to keep track of because they were just keeping track of little detailed records for their character and not trying to do it for an entire army. They didn't care if they could kill a monster in one blow, but they didn't want the monster to kill them in one blow. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]OD&D Men and Magic[/FONT]

This indicates the number of dice which are rolled in order to determine how many hit points a character can take.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]D&D Basic Set - Holmes Blue Book[/FONT]

This represents the amount of damage the character can take.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]B/X[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hit points represent the number of “points” of damage a character or monster can take during battle before dying.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
BECMI[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the game, when any creature is hi(either monster or character), damage is caused. There is a way of keeping track of damage, called hit points.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The number of hit points is the amount of damage that a creature can take before being killed. Hit points can be any number; the more hit points a creature has, the harder it is to kill.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Basic (1991)[/FONT]

Hit points represent the amount of damage a character or monster can take before dying.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Rules Cyclopedia[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your character's hit point score represents his ability to survive injury. The higher his hit point score, the more damage he can sustain before dying.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Characters who survive long enough to more and more hit points; therefore, an experienced character lasts longer in a fight or other dangerous situations than does an inexperienced character.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]AD&D DMG[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As has been detailed, hit points are not actually o measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned. Therefore, the location of hits and the type of damage caused are not germane to them. While this is not true with respect to most monsters, it is neither necessary nor particularly useful. Lest some purist immediately object, consider the many charts and tables necessary to handle this sort of detail, and then think about how area effect spells would work. In like manner, consider all of the nasty things which face adventurers as the rules stand. Are crippling disabilities and yet more ways to meet instant death desirable in an open-ended, episodic game where participants seek to identify with lovingly detailed and developed player-character personae? Not likely! Certain death isundesirable as a give-away campaign. Combat is a common pursuit in the vast majority of adventures, and the participants in the campaign deserve a chance to exercise intelligent choice during such confrontations. As hit points dwindle they can opt to break off the encounter and attempt to flee. With complex combat systems which stress so-called realism and feature hit location, special damage, and so on, either this option is severely limited or the rules are highly slanted towards favoring the player characters at the expense of their opponents. (Such rules as double damage and critical hits must cut both ways ~ in which case the life expectancy of player characters will be shortened considerably - or the monsters are being grossly misrepresented and unfairly treated by the system. I am certain you can think of many other such rules.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Damage scored to characters or certain monsters is actually not substantially physical - a mere nick or scratch until the lost handful of hit points are considered - it is a matter of wearing away the endurance, the luck, the magical protections. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]With respect to most monsters such damage is, in fact, more physically substantial although as with adjustments in armor class rating for speed and agility, there are also similar additions in hit points. So while a round of combat is not a continuous series of attacks, it is neither just a single blow and counter-blow affair. The opponents spar and move, seeking the opportunity to engage when on opening, in the enemy's guard presents itself.[/FONT]

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AD&D Player's Handbook[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual andpotential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being Killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This IS the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit paints are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Rest also restores hit points, for it gives the body a chance to heal itself and regain the stamina or force which adds the skill, luck, and magical hit points.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2E DMG and Player's Handbook[/FONT]

Sometimes, no degree of luck, skill, ability, or resistance to various attacks can prevent harm from coming to a character. The adventuring life carries with it unavoidable risks. Sooner or later a character is going to be hurt. To allow characters to be heroic (and for ease of play), damage is handled abstractly in the AD&D game. All characters and monsters have a number of hit points. The more hit points a creature has, the harder it is to defeat.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3e Player's Handbook[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. A 10th level fighter who has taken 50 points of damage is not as badly hurt as a 10th level wizard who has taken that much damage. Indeed, unless the wizard has a high Constitution score, she's probably dead or dying, while the fighter is battered but otherwise doing fine. Why the difference? Partly because the fighter is better at rolling with the punches, protecting vital areas, and dodging just enough that a blow that would be fatal only wounds him. Party because he's tough as nails. He can take damage that would drop a horse and still swing his sword with deadly effect. For some characters, hit points represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn't have the favor of some higher power. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A 10th level fighter who has taken 50 points of damage may be about as physically hurt as a 10th level wizard who has taken 30 points of damage, the 1st level fighter who has taken 5 points of damage, or the 1st level wizard who has taken 3. Details at this level, however, don't affect how the dice roll. When picturing a scene, just remember that 50 points of damage means different things to different people. [/FONT]

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D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. For some characters, hit points represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn't have the favor of some higher power.[/FONT]

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4E DMG[/FONT]

Hit points are how much damage you can take. Healing surges are how many times you can be healed in a day, and how much you heal at a time.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]4e Player's Handbook[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Over the course of a battle, you take damage from attacks. Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]combat situation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Second Wind[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You can dig into your resolve and endurance to find an extra burst of vitality. In game terms, you spend a healing surge to regain some of your lost hit points, and you focus on defending yourself.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Pathfinder[/FONT]

What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

 

[delericho]

3e took the best approach, IMO: hit points represent a combination of physical toughness, luck, skill, divine favour, etc, but every hit that causes hit point damage represents at least some measure of wounding.

That is, if your 10th level Fighter gets hit for 20 hit points of damage, then he may have been good enough to turn a killing blow into a nick, but he wasn't able to avoid it entirely.

This allowed the rest of the system to fit together reasonably well - if hit with a poisoned blade, any hit that did hit point damage meant the poison tool effect (and, conversely, if your DR negated all the damage, the poison was also blocked).

It did run into a few key troubles - it didn't make sense that cure light wounds gave the same number of hit points regardless of the target, and neither did it really make sense that the 'exhautsion' part of hit point damage didn't heal quickly. (In some ways, the "Healing Surge" mechanic of 4e makes a lot of sense... although it had a lot of flaws in other areas.)

I think that adopting any single "hit points are X" model is a mistake, regardless of whether X is "physical toughness" or "divine favour", or any other single factor. There will always be some corner case that causes the model to fall over. But by stating that it is a combination of factors (and insisting that every hit point loss represents at least some sort of injury) leaves a model that kind-of sort-of works... which is about the best we can really hope for.

YMMV, of course.

 

[GM Dave]

I find that Hit Points are one of the great 'dials' of the game and I don't think designers give them enough consideration.

1> By changing the ratio of hit points to damage a designer or DM can change the length of combats. I use this ratio on my monsters to control roughly how many rounds of combat a battle will last. I keep track of the damage out put of my players and their average bonuses to hit to figure out roughly how many hit points of monster with matching defenses are required to last 1 round, 3 rounds, or a slug fest of 10 rounds.

This is an important tool for me as I play with a group that averages eight players and can go from as low as four to as high as eleven on a game night. Modifying the monster's hit point totals to match the capabilities of the players allows them to play non-fighters and still be in rewarding and challenging fights.

2> By changing the ratio of hit points to damage a designer or a DM can change the feel of combat. When I wanted my players to run through hordes of monkey people, I kept the hit points down to be sufficient that most players could dispatch a monkey person in one or two blows (6 hit points was the magic number for first level Pathfinder characters that night). The monkey people were given weapons that did d4 and d6 which slowly added damage but would not instant kill a player.

I also had a huge Frankenstein gorilla that did 2d6 damage which was a threat for being able to 1 hit the players.

The players had a range of feeling very superior to being mortal by the range of hit points to damage. This model could easily be extended to the Superhero feel of players having 50 hit points and most opponents being able to do 1 hit point of damage back per attack. Many video games make great usage of this design to make an opponent seem unstoppable with a million hit points until the players later get attacks that do tens of thousands of damage.

3> One of the problems with most DnD and similar products is the hit points are designed around a 'work day' assumption of so many battles to be fought. If the players fight more or less battles then the amount of hit points can be too low or too high for the suggested monster challenges.

Player's hit point totals should be a base amount with a multiplier set by the DM based upon the number of combat encounters the DM plans for the players to face in a single day. If the DM likes single encounter per day play then the players have just enough resources to be challenged to get through that one encounter and if the DM likes five fights in a single day then the players have the hit point resources to play that style of game.

The alternative is to do what most video and online games do and consider the hit points are near to full for each battle. This makes the hit points more of burst reserve that is good at the start of each battle with a bit of down time to recover. Then it doesn't matter how many fights occur in a single day as the hit points will start near full at each battle (more a measure of physical conditioning like sending a player out to play football. Real damage occurs when the player gets tired and then makes a mistake that gets them seriously hurt).

4> I think that more traps should be built like monsters and have hit points that allows the player to wreck the machine if they wish. This is not the pit trap which is more of a environmental hazard like a river of lava. I am referring to things like the pendulum blade traps and the arrow traps that should have the option to bash them to remove the hazard instead of having a person make several reflex rolls to 'dodge' by the trouble.

 

[trancejeremy]

Thanks to 5E I dug up my old Dragon Magazine Archive the other night and it's funny, a lot of this stuff (hit points, combat realism/quickness, Vancian spellcasting, Alignment) came up a lot in EGG's columns where he defended them

 

[Halivar]

I don't take hit-points to mean anything. It's a pure abstraction. It's a construct designed to lengthen combat, build tension, and provide something more cinematic than killing someone with a single arrow (the simulationist approach).

The only real, serious blow your character receives is the one that kills him.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I understand the sentiment to treat hps more as an abstract pacing mechanic and not think too much about what they really represent. But if the continued arguments over warlord healing are any indication, for a big chunk of people it really *is* important and I believe it's an issue they're going to have to address. Indeed, I think it's one of those issues right at the heart of the gamism vs simulationism debate. Personally, I think it's okay to come up with rules from a gamist perspective but those rules have to be followed up with a discussion on what those rules means (or can mean) in the imagined space of the game world.

I mean, if hitpoints are not purely physical, then what happens when you take damage? What happens if you take damage that is physical but then "heal" it via non-magical inspiration? Lots of non-4e people might roll their eyes at the ability to do the latter (again, the warlord healing argument). So while you can just wave your hand and say it doesn't matter, I think as a game designer you need to have an answer for those people.