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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreenTengu" data-source="post: 6799625" data-attributes="member: 6777454">For every 20 hobgoblins in a group there is a leader (sergeant) and 2 assistants. These hobgoblins will have 9 hit paints each. If 100 or more hobgoblins are encountered there will be the following additional figures with the group: a subchief (armor class 3, 16 hit points, and 1 + 2 damage (3-10 hit points)). These additional hobgoblins fight as 3 hit dice monsters.If hobgoblins are encountered in their lair there will also be, in addition, a chief and 5-20 bodyguards. Hobgoblin chiefs are armor class 2, 22 hit points, do 2-1 1 hit points of damage, and fight as 4 hit dice monsters. Their bodyguards are the same as those of sub-chiefs. There are females and young in the lair equal to 150% and 300% respectively of the number of males.Yeah... no. No, he didn't. At least not as of 1st edition monster manual. Maybe 2nd edition.Like I said... no serious consideration as to how this society could functionally exist and numbers just... random. And... well... yeah... just let that last sentence sink in and consider all its implications.Can you point me to the setting where hobgoblins are powerful enough and control a large enough area in a stable enough way that it is remotely possible for them to keep a slave force large enough to actually support the number of hobgoblin soldiers actually encountered and killed/defeated by PCs? These numbers might be fine for their ideal, which you can use in your homebrew world where hobgoblins are at the pinnacle of their power, but in any actual D&D world, it doesn't work out.Accounting for the slaves is why I would peg that about 25% of their force could be full-time soldiers rather than 7% as you noted. And no doubt the slaves are forced to do the most denigrating and back-breaking work. But there would still be plenty of "commoner" hobgoblins-- there would simply have to be. Some of them may be working the land-- maybe shepherds or ranchers of some sort, others doing various skilled and educated labor roles that you just aren't going to put in the hands of common goblins who reach maturity at about 10 and generally die before reaching 30.There is still a big difference between a proper soldier and someone with basic training. A peek at what I posit for good hobgoblin racial traits notes that even the least among them likely knows how to use one martial weapon and knows one basic combat maneuver as well as being generally having more stamina than most other people, but contrarily are not going to be nearly as widely skilled or specialized as a human would be.And, again, your comparison to the south fails in two major ways. It first assumes that the hobgoblins would own vast countries where they are the law, have stable control over their lands for generations, have functional trade, cooperate openly with other clans to keep their slaves under control-- again, an ideal no setting allows them to have. Secondly, even in the south plenty of white people were still basic farmers working the land.Instead, we are talking about a people who don't generally cooperate outside their own tribe well, are constantly crushed and scattered by human, elves, dwarves or orcs pretty much any time they grow their societies large enough to be a meaningful threat (probably once a generation) and have little power to impose any sort of laws and cannot at all rely on steady trade forcing them to gather all resources on their own.You want to create your homebrew world where the hobgoblins are still on top and have all the power, that's fine-- obviously that situation greatly shifts things. But in most settings, it just doesn't jive with what is going on. Maybe in Kingdoms of Kalamar or one country in Eberron-- but even then it seems highly unlikely there are just that they are keeping 7x their own population of other peoples as slaves.Well, at least in terms of military force we pretty  much come to an agreement. Actually, you are making them even more rare than I did.Did you realize you contradicted yourself here? Whatever happened to the "you never arm slaves"? In fact, assuming they rely on slaves and value their own, why would you ever imagine they would give the slaves the bows and put them at their back? Or that they are going to trust the slaves to lead them through the rough terrain and trust the 13-year old goblin to properly assess the threats that lie ahead and properly devise their strategies? You think they are going to have a slave be the conduit to their god and put it in charge of healing them?Think about that a lot harder. It is quite clearly incorrect. If you want something done right, if the entire survival of your troops utterly depends on a task being done right-- you are not going to put it in the hands of slaves. And you certainly are not going to give your slaves ranged weapons and open your flank to them. Doesn't matter if you have a couple of your own in there to "control" them-- it just isn't sound military principle.Maybe in your own homebrew world you are making you can make them a lot of drooling idiots who couldn't win a fight against a wall because all they want is to "git stukk in wit' da boyz" and gleefully give all the most dangerous weapons and safe positions to the rebellious slaves and put those slaves in the positions to do the most harm to their own... but, that just isn't what has ever been suggested by their lore.Hobgoblins will be their own archers, their own scouts, their own priests, their own cavalry, their own assassins and saboteurs and so forth. At least any time they want anything done remotely right. Now, the frontline soldiers probably do receive the most accolades and celebration and open respect... But, you know what? That is true of every successful military! You always pin the medals on the people who put themselves in the gravest danger in the war (or at least on their corpses) regardless of whether their efforts actually contributed the most to victory. It is a way to keep up morale and make sure people feel motivated to take up those positions rather than realizing they are being used...Which, you know-- is totally Lawful Evil.</blockquote>

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