D&D 5E Hobgoblin Leaders

[SubDude]

How large of a tribe of hobgoblins would it take before the leader was a "captain", or a "warlord", type?

I assume there isn't a "correct" answer, but I'd welcome thoughts and opinions.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I tend to use "Captains" over about forty hobgoblins, and "Warlords" over about a thousand.

 

[UnknownDyson]

Probably hundreds. Goblins native to the feywild are often overlooked, they have an entire empire. Look to them for inspiration.

 

[S'mon]

I use entire squads of hobgoblin captains as 'hobgoblin knights'

 

[jadrax]

If you wanted to go on Roman lines, theoretically a hundred but more often 60-80.

But personally, I would use them for any Hobgoblin Officer type, including an experienced squad leader.

 

[Gonat]

I used a captain as a recurrent boss-type enemy when the party was really low level. When they finally killed him in an epic battle I started to put that type of Hobgoblin more often, even as leaders for relatively small groups of Hobgoblin (now they know that He was just the leader of a faction in a really big horde of goblinoids)
The level difference in the PCs don't let them notice that this new enemies are the same of the previous one. They just remember the hard fight and in their memory Groth was on another level completely.
All this just to say that even in a single campaign you can adjust the frequency of that type of monster without worrying too much.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Actually, there is a "correct" answer. From the 1st edition Monster Manual:

For every 20 hobgoblins in a group there is a leader (sergeant) and 2 assistants.... If 100 or more hobgoblins are encountered there will be the following additional figures with the group: a subchief... If hobgoblins are encountered in their lair there will also be, in addition, a chief and 5-20 bodyguards.

I'd give the leader and assistants 15 Str, 14 Con, and 19 (3d8 + 6) hit points, and make them worth 125 XP each.

For the subchief and the chief's bodyguards, I'd use the hobgoblin captain from the 5th edition Monster Manual (page 186). For the chief, I'd use the hobgoblin warlord on page 187.

 

[GreenTengu]

The monster manual has never done a decent job of modeling non-PC race societies. There is a lot you need to consider.

First, unlike as presented in the monster manual-- not every hobgoblin is going to be a standard soldier. Culturally it is likely that every one of them gets basic militia training as it is a fundamental part of their culture-- but even with their tendency to take slaves when/if they can and the fact that they generally aren't inclined as a culture to really develop land to the extent humans do (their farms don't sprawl out for miles and miles, they don't build up bustling cities) with maybe exceptions in a few settings, the overwhelming majority of their people are still going to be laborers, craftsmen, academics, etc. Whether that means growing or hunting the food, smithing, masonry, child rearing, or so forth. All the various roles that it is inescapable that a society of self-sufficient intelligent humanoids just necessarily has to do.

Really, no more than somewhere between 10-30% of their society can really be full-time soldiers since their culture is militaristic, but at the same time they aren't living in grime and mud and undoubtedly manage to cloth, feed, house and equip their people, its probably around 25% -- which is still considerably higher than humans who are likely at around 10%.

Of course, I imagine every hobgoblin has some combat training as part of their basic education, possibly even empathized above reading and writing... possibly. Also, they probably engage in daily exercises to a far greater extent than most human cultures do.

Which then presents the difficult question-- do those stats under the "Hobgoblin" in the monster manual represent the basic, average, run-of-the-mill hobgoblins or do they represent full-time combat soldiers?

If the former, then where are the stats for dedicated, full-time soldiers who make their life on winning in combat and live or die by the sword-- for those ought to be a considerable step up from the hobgoblin carpenter or the hobgoblin medic or the hobgoblin courier.

If the later, clearly they don't represent scouts, cavalry, archers, or engineers, they only represent the phalanx soldiers who might be the most common training style, but certainly not all soldiers are trained in the exact same manner.

And, finally-- what exactly does it mean by "captain"? Is this a general term of whomever happens to be in charge? In that case, every single party of hobgoblins out there is going to have a "captain" no matter the size. Is it a specific rank? In such a case, is it distinctly different from "Sergeant" or does it mean exactly the same thing? If it is different, then how does the culture differentiate between enlisted and officers? Is it about blood line or education or does one have to earn the rank through some particularly heroic action?

What I hope to highlight here is.... there has never actually been even the slightest critical thought put into any of this. Yes, the very first edition threw out some random numbers-- but it was remarkable just how little critical thought or examination was put into designing the non-human races at the time (even the ones that were PCs!)-- so those numbers were literally just pulled out of someone's rear end on a whim and well deserve to go right where anything pulled from someone's rear end would go. Which isn't do say that after examining the issue critically one won't find that they were in the right general ballpark-- but they aren't useful or even helpful because you miss all the steps in between that really give you the information you need.

But, if I had to answer...
Out of 1000 hobgoblins
750 of them are going to be best represented by taking the CR 0-1/4 NPC section in the book and plugging in hobgoblin racial traits (such as those in this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474300-5E-Goblin-Gith-Hobgoblin-amp-Rakasta) and the overwhelming majority of those are going to be commoners.
150 of them are going to be roughly modeled by that CR 1/2 who is going to be the standard model soldier with the basic training-- maybe a couple minor tweaks. (Or, again, some might use the CR 1/2 NPC entries plus hobgoblin racial traits.)
75 of them are going to be like that entry but somewhere between 3-5 hit die with maybe some more special abilities geared towards archery or cavalry or medical skills or such. (Between CR 1/2-CR3)
17-18 of them are going to be the "hobgoblin captain" entry with nothing but the most basic tweaks. (CR3)
5 of them are going to be like the hobgoblin captain but somewhere between 7-12 hit die and maybe some other special abilities like noted above. (Between CR3 and CR6)
And only 1 out of 1000 is going to be best represented by the Warlord entry as this is just about the pinnacle of what you can expect any NPC who isn't the major protagonist of the story to ever reach. (CR 6)

Anything beyond that is exceptionally rare-- like maybe 1 out of 10,000 or even 100,000. At least assuming you are working within a world where any basic human-like race virtually never passes level 10. Sure, there might be some grand heroes or villains of the race out there that can achieve great things, but those exceptional individuals should be modeled individually.

 

[Hriston]

The monster manual has never done a decent job of modeling non-PC race societies. There is a lot you need to consider.

First, unlike as presented in the monster manual-- not every hobgoblin is going to be a standard soldier. Culturally it is likely that every one of them gets basic militia training as it is a fundamental part of their culture-- but even with their tendency to take slaves when/if they can and the fact that they generally aren't inclined as a culture to really develop land to the extent humans do (their farms don't sprawl out for miles and miles, they don't build up bustling cities) with maybe exceptions in a few settings, the overwhelming majority of their people are still going to be laborers, craftsmen, academics, etc. Whether that means growing or hunting the food, smithing, masonry, child rearing, or so forth. All the various roles that it is inescapable that a society of self-sufficient intelligent humanoids just necessarily has to do.

Really, no more than somewhere between 10-30% of their society can really be full-time soldiers since their culture is militaristic, but at the same time they aren't living in grime and mud and undoubtedly manage to cloth, feed, house and equip their people, its probably around 25% -- which is still considerably higher than humans who are likely at around 10%.

Of course, I imagine every hobgoblin has some combat training as part of their basic education, possibly even empathized above reading and writing... possibly. Also, they probably engage in daily exercises to a far greater extent than most human cultures do.

Which then presents the difficult question-- do those stats under the "Hobgoblin" in the monster manual represent the basic, average, run-of-the-mill hobgoblins or do they represent full-time combat soldiers?

If the former, then where are the stats for dedicated, full-time soldiers who make their life on winning in combat and live or die by the sword-- for those ought to be a considerable step up from the hobgoblin carpenter or the hobgoblin medic or the hobgoblin courier.

If the later, clearly they don't represent scouts, cavalry, archers, or engineers, they only represent the phalanx soldiers who might be the most common training style, but certainly not all soldiers are trained in the exact same manner.

And, finally-- what exactly does it mean by "captain"? Is this a general term of whomever happens to be in charge? In that case, every single party of hobgoblins out there is going to have a "captain" no matter the size. Is it a specific rank? In such a case, is it distinctly different from "Sergeant" or does it mean exactly the same thing? If it is different, then how does the culture differentiate between enlisted and officers? Is it about blood line or education or does one have to earn the rank through some particularly heroic action?

What I hope to highlight here is.... there has never actually been even the slightest critical thought put into any of this. Yes, the very first edition threw out some random numbers-- but it was remarkable just how little critical thought or examination was put into designing the non-human races at the time (even the ones that were PCs!)-- so those numbers were literally just pulled out of someone's rear end on a whim and well deserve to go right where anything pulled from someone's rear end would go. Which isn't do say that after examining the issue critically one won't find that they were in the right general ballpark-- but they aren't useful or even helpful because you miss all the steps in between that really give you the information you need.

But, if I had to answer...
Out of 1000 hobgoblins
750 of them are going to be best represented by taking the CR 0-1/4 NPC section in the book and plugging in hobgoblin racial traits (such as those in this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474300-5E-Goblin-Gith-Hobgoblin-amp-Rakasta) and the overwhelming majority of those are going to be commoners.
150 of them are going to be roughly modeled by that CR 1/2 who is going to be the standard model soldier with the basic training-- maybe a couple minor tweaks. (Or, again, some might use the CR 1/2 NPC entries plus hobgoblin racial traits.)
75 of them are going to be like that entry but somewhere between 3-5 hit die with maybe some more special abilities geared towards archery or cavalry or medical skills or such. (Between CR 1/2-CR3)
17-18 of them are going to be the "hobgoblin captain" entry with nothing but the most basic tweaks. (CR3)
5 of them are going to be like the hobgoblin captain but somewhere between 7-12 hit die and maybe some other special abilities like noted above. (Between CR3 and CR6)
And only 1 out of 1000 is going to be best represented by the Warlord entry as this is just about the pinnacle of what you can expect any NPC who isn't the major protagonist of the story to ever reach. (CR 6)

Anything beyond that is exceptionally rare-- like maybe 1 out of 10,000 or even 100,000. At least assuming you are working within a world where any basic human-like race virtually never passes level 10. Sure, there might be some grand heroes or villains of the race out there that can achieve great things, but those exceptional individuals should be modeled individually.

Great analysis, but isn't that roughly what Gygax's entry tells us, i.e. for every 200 hobgoblin combatants there are 600 noncombatants (in lair)?

 

[Ovinomancer]

The monster manual has never done a decent job of modeling non-PC race societies. There is a lot you need to consider.

First, unlike as presented in the monster manual-- not every hobgoblin is going to be a standard soldier. Culturally it is likely that every one of them gets basic militia training as it is a fundamental part of their culture-- but even with their tendency to take slaves when/if they can and the fact that they generally aren't inclined as a culture to really develop land to the extent humans do (their farms don't sprawl out for miles and miles, they don't build up bustling cities) with maybe exceptions in a few settings, the overwhelming majority of their people are still going to be laborers, craftsmen, academics, etc. Whether that means growing or hunting the food, smithing, masonry, child rearing, or so forth. All the various roles that it is inescapable that a society of self-sufficient intelligent humanoids just necessarily has to do.

Really, no more than somewhere between 10-30% of their society can really be full-time soldiers since their culture is militaristic, but at the same time they aren't living in grime and mud and undoubtedly manage to cloth, feed, house and equip their people, its probably around 25% -- which is still considerably higher than humans who are likely at around 10%.

Of course, I imagine every hobgoblin has some combat training as part of their basic education, possibly even empathized above reading and writing... possibly. Also, they probably engage in daily exercises to a far greater extent than most human cultures do.

Which then presents the difficult question-- do those stats under the "Hobgoblin" in the monster manual represent the basic, average, run-of-the-mill hobgoblins or do they represent full-time combat soldiers?

If the former, then where are the stats for dedicated, full-time soldiers who make their life on winning in combat and live or die by the sword-- for those ought to be a considerable step up from the hobgoblin carpenter or the hobgoblin medic or the hobgoblin courier.

If the later, clearly they don't represent scouts, cavalry, archers, or engineers, they only represent the phalanx soldiers who might be the most common training style, but certainly not all soldiers are trained in the exact same manner.

And, finally-- what exactly does it mean by "captain"? Is this a general term of whomever happens to be in charge? In that case, every single party of hobgoblins out there is going to have a "captain" no matter the size. Is it a specific rank? In such a case, is it distinctly different from "Sergeant" or does it mean exactly the same thing? If it is different, then how does the culture differentiate between enlisted and officers? Is it about blood line or education or does one have to earn the rank through some particularly heroic action?

What I hope to highlight here is.... there has never actually been even the slightest critical thought put into any of this. Yes, the very first edition threw out some random numbers-- but it was remarkable just how little critical thought or examination was put into designing the non-human races at the time (even the ones that were PCs!)-- so those numbers were literally just pulled out of someone's rear end on a whim and well deserve to go right where anything pulled from someone's rear end would go. Which isn't do say that after examining the issue critically one won't find that they were in the right general ballpark-- but they aren't useful or even helpful because you miss all the steps in between that really give you the information you need.

But, if I had to answer...
Out of 1000 hobgoblins
750 of them are going to be best represented by taking the CR 0-1/4 NPC section in the book and plugging in hobgoblin racial traits (such as those in this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474300-5E-Goblin-Gith-Hobgoblin-amp-Rakasta) and the overwhelming majority of those are going to be commoners.
150 of them are going to be roughly modeled by that CR 1/2 who is going to be the standard model soldier with the basic training-- maybe a couple minor tweaks. (Or, again, some might use the CR 1/2 NPC entries plus hobgoblin racial traits.)
75 of them are going to be like that entry but somewhere between 3-5 hit die with maybe some more special abilities geared towards archery or cavalry or medical skills or such. (Between CR 1/2-CR3)
17-18 of them are going to be the "hobgoblin captain" entry with nothing but the most basic tweaks. (CR3)
5 of them are going to be like the hobgoblin captain but somewhere between 7-12 hit die and maybe some other special abilities like noted above. (Between CR3 and CR6)
And only 1 out of 1000 is going to be best represented by the Warlord entry as this is just about the pinnacle of what you can expect any NPC who isn't the major protagonist of the story to ever reach. (CR 6)

Anything beyond that is exceptionally rare-- like maybe 1 out of 10,000 or even 100,000. At least assuming you are working within a world where any basic human-like race virtually never passes level 10. Sure, there might be some grand heroes or villains of the race out there that can achieve great things, but those exceptional individuals should be modeled individually.

I disagree, based mostly on how I view hobgoblin civilization: militarized, brutal, but still highly organized. Hobgoblin society is based entirely on their strength of war -- not arms, as an individual's contribution is lessened if he does not contribute to the whole. So the epitome of a hobgoblin is a well trained solider fighting in the ranks to increase the power and prestige of the empire (or warband, doesn't matter). I think this is best represented by the hobgoblin captain -- the quintessential hobgoblin soldier most hobs aspire to be when they grow up. This means that most hobs are the 1/2 CR ones -- trained, but not the best. The warlords are those that are the best of the best - the leaders and role models for the society.

Now, it's a pretty decent number to assume that only 7% of a countries population could be mustered for a campaign season (80-110 days) before a typical medieval country would slide into famine. This number counts the peasants (who you didn't typically arm except in dire circumstance) and slaves (who you didn't arm ever). I don't see the hobgoblin mindset lending itself to a large number of hob peasants working the land, but I do see it working with large slaves labor forces -- subjugated goblins, humans, elves, etc. Slave labor is typically less effective than peasants, and requires more control, but you can have more of them for the same costs (if you don't treat them well, which I don't think hobs do). Still, when you consider the need for overseers and whatnot, you can't field everyone, but I think it's closer to 15-20% of total population for hobs than for the historical percentage.

But, even those left behind will be trained in war, for the most part. So I think that, percentage-wise, the numbers you came up with for warbands are pretty close -- about 150-200 per 1000 hobs. But, I think that your skill assessment is off, as I think that of the 800 or so not levied, most of those are still skilled warriors either pulling guard duty over slaves, watching other borders, or cross-training into skill sets that slaves are unreliable in or that you need some knowledge in order to effectively direct the slaves. I view hobgoblin society as pretty much the height of the US south's slave era, except that there are many fewer poor hobgoblins eking out an existence in the shadow of the plantations. Most are engaged in running plantations of slaves. Total war seems a very hobgoblin mindset.

And, within those 200 levied hobgoblins, there would actually be a higher percentage of the captains than you postulate. I'd say about 1 in 10 or 15, as those individuals would rarely have jobs back home (such oversight would be provided by retired captains) and would always be out on campaign. After all, they're what every little hobgoblin dreams of being. Warlords I'd have as slightly more common, but still only one out on a given campaign at a time (the others being home engaged in whatever hobgoblin politics scene there is).

So, a war party of hobgoblins is 1 warlord per 200-1000, and 1 captain per 15 or so hobgoblins. Smaller detachments can have a captain or not, depending on needs.

Also, I think that the pinnacle of hobgobliness is the phalanx warrior. Much like the Romans, a citizen fights in the Legions, and is a Legionnaire. You use auxiliaries for your irregulars, skirmishers, and missile troops. Favored tribes of goblins are impressed as scouts and missile troops. Bugbears, orges, and trolls are used as shock troops, but only hobgoblins are in the Legion, and no real hobgoblin would consider being trained as a scout or missile troop commander as anything other than a direct insult to their identity.