D&D General An Atlantean Empire who are it's people and what are their capabilities?

[Theory of Games]

Great thread and great ideas here

 

[Kobold Avenger]

How do they control heat or fire? All technology beyond stone and bone needs heat or fire. To smelt metals, forge metals or distil elixirs. How do they control heat underwater with any degree of efficiency and without scalding themselves?
Or do they use some kind of magical biotech? In that, all their tools are creatures designed for the role, or the waste products of creatures designed to produce that.
I think that is where I would start.

Some of my ideas for the metallurgy issues:

1. They use underwater volcanic vents
2. They use some chemical/alchemical processes to forge metals.
3. Magic, especially Conjuration and Transmutation spells
4. They bind Fire Elementals for forges
5. They trade for crafted metallic items
6. They have colonies or workshops on the surface.
7. Biotech or Life-shaping (such as what they used in the Athasian Blue Age)

 

[Staffan]

How do they control heat or fire? All technology beyond stone and bone needs heat or fire. To smelt metals, forge metals or distil elixirs. How do they control heat underwater with any degree of efficiency and without scalding themselves?
Or do they use some kind of magical biotech? In that, all their tools are creatures designed for the role, or the waste products of creatures designed to produce that.
I think that is where I would start.

Huh. That gave me a flashback to the Secret History of the Dark Sun setting. At one point, the planet was mostly covered in water, and the dominant species (and only sapient one, except for semi-sapient precursors to the Thri-Kreen) were something close to halflings. These halflings didn't have any arcane magic, and only limited elemental (priestly) magic, but they were amazing at "lifeshaping" – essentially biotech. That could be a cool thing for an underwater empire to use.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Some interesting ideas here but pick one and work out the implications. For instance:

Some of my ideas for the metallurgy issues:

1. They use underwater volcanic vents

The water around such vents is usually superhot (well over 100 dec C) but not boiling because of the pressure. So how they manipulate and how to the see what they are doing? Are they immune to the heat?

1. They use some chemical/alchemical processes to forge metals.

Also, cool but how do they prevent the surrounding water from transporting the heat away and killing the process?

1. Magic, especially Conjuration and Transmutation spells

So unique spells?

1. They bind Fire Elementals for forges

See my comments on chemistry/alchemy

1. They trade for crafted metallic items
2. They have colonies or workshops on the surface.

A bit boring

1. Biotech or Life-shaping (such as what they used in the Athasian Blue Age)

This could be really cool, though perhaps the most work.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Some interesting ideas here but pick one and work out the implications. For instance:

The water around such vents is usually superhot (well over 100 dec C) but not boiling because of the pressure. So how they manipulate and how to the see what they are doing? Are they immune to the heat?

There probably aren't that many sea creatures that have resistance to fire damage, but it's probably done by someone who is resistant to it.

Also, cool but how do they prevent the surrounding water from transporting the heat away and killing the process?

An alchemical process might not involve heat, if alchemy could transmute one material into another (like most infamously lead into gold), then maybe it temporarily converts metal into something that's malleable.

So unique spells?

Fabricate is a spell that comes to mind.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

My main question is how? How did the empire get that big? The biggest contiguous land empire in history, the Mongol Empire, didn't even conquer a full continent. How on Earth did a single empire conquer all of the oceans on the planet? Especially given the fact that oceans are 3D. You can swim up and down. There's life living at all levels of the ocean, and there would likely be aquatic fantasy races living at all depths. Can whichever species that formed this empire survive at all depths of the ocean, from the world's equivalent of the Mariana Trench to the surface? Let's say the Kuo-Toa and Aboleths live at the very bottom of the ocean. How does the empire make sure they're loyal and don't declare independence? Can their average soldier survive living at the bottom of the ocean for extended periods of time? Or do they have divisions of soldiers that specialize in deep sea diving?

And not just how did it form, how is it still around? That empire would be over-extended to Baator and back. If the empire has a capital city, how does it tell people on the other side of the planet, which they supposedly rule over, what to do? How do they enforce their laws and policies? How do they collect taxes/tribute? How does the empire protect trade, communication, and travel throughout the empire? How does the empire make sure that not only is it producing enough food, but that it's making specifically enough food for all of the different species in the empire and is delivering the food to the correct locations in an orderly fashion? There would definitely be magic that could help, such as teleportation circles and the Sending spell, but the empire would have to have pretty widespread magic for them to rely on those spells to administrate the empire.

What are the internal factions in the empire? Who is in charge of it? Does the empire have strict succession laws to determine who can rule? For example, maybe all monarchs so far have been Storm Giants of a specific dynasty. Or can anyone become emperor if designated as the successor or they gain enough influence/power (be it through military accomplishments, climbing the bureaucratic ladder, or governing a province in the empire)? In the latter case, maybe the empire has near-constant civil wars to determine who is in charge. If they don't have a single ruler, are they a republic? How do they do elections? Who is allowed to vote? How do they do censuses in an underwater environment, where groups of people will likely be moving around constantly?

Does the empire completely control and administer all regions of the oceans, or are there semi-independent client states in regions that are too difficult to control (deep sea, lakes, underwater caves, etc). These parts could be nominally part of the empire, but mostly self-administering. Similarly, if there are nomadic tribes of hunter gatherers, there's not much point in keeping record of their location and numbers, as they won't be paying much in taxes.

How much of the society is nomadic and how much is settled? In an underwater environment, nomadic cultures would be common as hunters follow schools of fish and other prey. How does agriculture work?

Who are the privileged and marginalized peoples in the empire? How are the privileged rewarded by society and how are the marginalized punished? Does slavery exist and in what form?

How does the military work? Is the empire attempting to expand onto land and/or into the rivers and lakes of the world, or are they prioritizing keeping the empire together as is? How do they deal with dangerous megafauna, like Krakens and Sea Serpents?

What is the religion of the ruling class? Do they mostly tolerate other faiths, or do they enforce it as a state faith? If they allow other religions to exist, do they do the Greek/Roman practice of interpretatio graeca/romana of conflating similar deities of different pantheons together as a way of assimilating the conquered peoples? If they forcibly converted everyone to their religion, how does the church work in the empire? Religion is often used by the ruling class to justify their rule (Divine Right of Kings, Mandate of Heaven, etc). There have been heads of state that are also the heads of the religion (the Pope, Islamic Caliphs, the Japanese Emperor in Shintoism, the British Monarchs in Anglicanism). But there are also religious heads that don't have political power. Does the ruling dynasty also serve as the heads of the religion, or is there a religious head that is independent of the state? How much - if at all - do the churches and the empire disagree with each other? Does the empire justify wars of expansion through religion?

For an example of how this could work in a D&D setting, let's assume the empire's created and ruled by the Sahuagin. The current ruler of the empire could be Chosen of Sekolah and the Sahuagin Emperor. Maybe whoever Sekolah decides is his Chosen becomes the rightful emperor? Or if this is more like Eberron, the Emperor could just declare himself to be the chosen of their deity without real divine intervention. Or maybe the ruler of the empire is immortal. That could solve the issue of succession crises, but cause other problems.

Creating, running, and maintaining this empire would be a nightmare. Its survival for any extended period of time would be nothing short of a miracle. I'm not saying it's impossible. This is fantasy, after all. Just that the logistics of all of this is worth considering. I don't really think which specific species controls the empire matters. Sahuagin, Storm Giants, Aquatic Dragons, Marid, Aboleths, Sea Elves, or others would work. If it was created by some advanced now-sunken Atlantis or innately magical species, that could be a justification for the widespread magic that would be necessary to keep the empire together, but you could find other justifications. This matters more for the vibe you want the empire to have more than how it would function. Is it an ancient empire from the dawn of time? In that case, Giants, Aboleths, and Dragons would work best. But if it's a relative newcomer, any of the younger races would make sense.

 

[Ath'kethin]

Drawing off a couple of upstream ideas: it would be cool to have the capital city be expansive in height/depth, not necessarily in width, allowing for many different types of creatures to thrive in it. That plus the "lifeshaping" idea someone tossed out presents a very cool visual in my mind at least.

EDIT

Also, I've always loved the sahuagin. I think it might be an interesting take for them to be, or have been, the peak civilization in the underwater world. Maybe kind of the way Eberron reinvisioned the goblins as a fallen great empire with traditions going back centuries and the orcs as having been the first druids and key to protecting the world from what was effectively an invasion from the Far Realm. Perhaps the Atlanean sahuagin broke the hold of an ancient aboleth/kraken empire or developed the lifeshaping idea or maybe both.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

My main question is how? How did the empire get that big? The biggest contiguous land empire in history, the Mongol Empire, didn't even conquer a full continent. How on Earth did a single empire conquer all of the oceans on the planet? Especially given the fact that oceans are 3D. You can swim up and down. There's life living at all levels of the ocean, and there would likely be aquatic fantasy races living at all depths. Can whichever species that formed this empire survive at all depths of the ocean, from the world's equivalent of the Mariana Trench to the surface? Let's say the Kuo-Toa and Aboleths live at the very bottom of the ocean. How does the empire make sure they're loyal and don't declare independence? Can their average soldier survive living at the bottom of the ocean for extended periods of time? Or do they have divisions of soldiers that specialize in deep sea diving?

One of my ideas is that the Empire is a multi-species Empire, I do see some species like Locathah being more suited to living deeper than Sea Elves or Merfolk, and possibly Koalinths being a lot of the soldiers of the Empire given how militaristic their surface brethen Hobgoblins happen to be. So they would have some deep sea soldiers, which might include some of the more elemental water type of beings.

And not just how did it form, how is it still around? That empire would be over-extended to Baator and back. If the empire has a capital city, how does it tell people on the other side of the planet, which they supposedly rule over, what to do? How do they enforce their laws and policies? How do they collect taxes/tribute? How does the empire protect trade, communication, and travel throughout the empire? How does the empire make sure that not only is it producing enough food, but that it's making specifically enough food for all of the different species in the empire and is delivering the food to the correct locations in an orderly fashion? There would definitely be magic that could help, such as teleportation circles and the Sending spell, but the empire would have to have pretty widespread magic for them to rely on those spells to administrate the empire.

Definitely magic to keep their empire in communication. Teleportation, gateways and planar shortcuts for some of the cohesion of the Empire. I guess parts of the Empire might have to go tolerate going through the definitely independent City of Glass on the Elemental Plane of Water. Which might lead to conflicts with Marids.

What are the internal factions in the empire? Who is in charge of it? Does the empire have strict succession laws to determine who can rule? For example, maybe all monarchs so far have been Storm Giants of a specific dynasty. Or can anyone become emperor if designated as the successor or they gain enough influence/power (be it through military accomplishments, climbing the bureaucratic ladder, or governing a province in the empire)? In the latter case, maybe the empire has near-constant civil wars to determine who is in charge. If they don't have a single ruler, are they a republic? How do they do elections? Who is allowed to vote? How do they do censuses in an underwater environment, where groups of people will likely be moving around constantly?

I think there would be factions of the major populations like Sea Elves, Merfolk, Locathah, Koalinths, Tritons, Water Genasi and then the others. Or maybe they aren't divided along those lines. The rulers could be influential members of those species perhaps an elected council, but the rulers could also be Storm Giants or an Empyrean or someone that's secretly a Kraken.

Does the empire completely control and administer all regions of the oceans, or are there semi-independent client states in regions that are too difficult to control (deep sea, lakes, underwater caves, etc). These parts could be nominally part of the empire, but mostly self-administering. Similarly, if there are nomadic tribes of hunter gatherers, there's not much point in keeping record of their location and numbers, as they won't be paying much in taxes.

Sahuagin, Ixitxachitl and Kuo Toans might be the outsiders to the Empire. And with oceans being as large as they are, there's probably a lot of semi-independent client states. But I certainly see the empire as having great underwater cities.

How much of the society is nomadic and how much is settled? In an underwater environment, nomadic cultures would be common as hunters follow schools of fish and other prey. How does agriculture work?

Many of the empire eat seaweed, kelp and shellfish and other things as well as fish.

Who are the privileged and marginalized peoples in the empire? How are the privileged rewarded by society and how are the marginalized punished? Does slavery exist and in what form?

In keeping with the main people being Sea Elves, Merfolk, Locathah, Koalinths, Tritons and Water Genasi, they're at least the middle class in the empire's society. Merrow might be the enforcers kept under control of the others. While powerful being like Storm Giants, Marid and Morkoths might be the privileged.

How does the military work? Is the empire attempting to expand onto land and/or into the rivers and lakes of the world, or are they prioritizing keeping the empire together as is? How do they deal with dangerous megafauna, like Krakens and Sea Serpents?

They might be threats to the empire, or things they can tame, or the secret rulers.

What is the religion of the ruling class? Do they mostly tolerate other faiths, or do they enforce it as a state faith? If they allow other religions to exist, do they do the Greek/Roman practice of interpretatio graeca/romana of conflating similar deities of different pantheons together as a way of assimilating the conquered peoples? If they forcibly converted everyone to their religion, how does the church work in the empire? Religion is often used by the ruling class to justify their rule (Divine Right of Kings, Mandate of Heaven, etc). There have been heads of state that are also the heads of the religion (the Pope, Islamic Caliphs, the Japanese Emperor in Shintoism, the British Monarchs in Anglicanism). But there are also religious heads that don't have political power. Does the ruling dynasty also serve as the heads of the religion, or is there a religious head that is independent of the state? How much - if at all - do the churches and the empire disagree with each other? Does the empire justify wars of expansion through religion?

Haven't really thought of the religion, but likely would be Istishia the Greater God (or Primordial) of Water.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

One of my ideas is that the Empire is a multi-species Empire, I do see some species like Locathah being more suited to living deeper than Sea Elves or Merfolk, and possibly Koalinths being a lot of the soldiers of the Empire given how militaristic their surface brethen Hobgoblins happen to be. So they would have some deep sea soldiers, which might include some of the more elemental water type of beings.

Oh, I considered the empire being multi-species as being a given. Empires tend to accumulate more ethnicities as they expand. Unless the empire wiped out the other species as it expanded, it would definitely end up having several different species inside it. My point was to give some thought as to how this would affect the empire, especially with how the depths of the ocean would affect it. Water elementals being in the military is an interesting idea.

Definitely magic to keep their empire in communication. Teleportation, gateways and planar shortcuts for some of the cohesion of the Empire. I guess parts of the Empire might have to go tolerate going through the definitely independent City of Glass on the Elemental Plane of Water. Which might lead to conflicts with Marids.

Okay, so how does the empire make sure it always has enough mages casting Sending, Teleportation Circle, and planar gateway spells? The two obvious solutions to me are either powerful magic items or a government-funded arcane university.

What happens to the empire if something goes wrong? This could be the hook for a quest. Maybe the party needs to negotiate a deal with the Marids after conflict arises? Or maybe the mages in charge of teleportation keep disappearing, and the party has to find the culprit before the empire erupts into chaos? Or if they're using a powerful artifact, maybe it was sabotaged?

I think there would be factions of the major populations like Sea Elves, Merfolk, Locathah, Koalinths, Tritons, Water Genasi and then the others. Or maybe they aren't divided along those lines. The rulers could be influential members of those species perhaps an elected council, but the rulers could also be Storm Giants or an Empyrean or someone that's secretly a Kraken.

In keeping with the main people being Sea Elves, Merfolk, Locathah, Koalinths, Tritons and Water Genasi, they're at least the middle class in the empire's society. Merrow might be the enforcers kept under control of the others. While powerful being like Storm Giants, Marid and Morkoths might be the privileged.

I think organizing them by some sort of caste system would make sense. Maybe with some division based on the region of the ocean they live in. Deep sea species being of a lower caste makes sense to me, given their semi-independent nature and unpleasant habitat.

Consider the effects that the different government types would have on the average person in the empire. If a Storm Giant, Bronze Dragon, Sea Elf, or other long-lived creature is the leader of the empire, there's a good chance they've been in charge for centuries. Dozens of triton/locathah/sahuagin/genasi generations could pass in the empire during a single ruler's reign. Unless there are frequent civil wars/coups that change who's in charge, that is.

Imagine what it would be like living in a country that, for the last 500 years, has had the same king. Like if Spain was still ruled by Charles V or England was still on Henry VIII. And that country controls the entire ocean. How big was the empire when the current ruler took power?

Or, if there's a council, how fair is it? Does it represent all sentient species in the empire? Does it represent them proportionally or is there a single representative per species?

But I certainly see the empire as having great underwater cities.

Definitely. Maybe consider what they produce and trade with the surface. And what they import. The adventurers could even meet an aquatic merchant who has come up to the land to trade.

They might be threats to the empire, or things they can tame, or the secret rulers.

Maybe they rely on allied aquatic dragons and dragon turtles to fend off other Kaiju-esque threats?

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The empire is secretly run by a cabal of aboleths who bioengineer various species and monstrosities in their efforts to destroy the (terrestrial) gods. The aboleths have set up a blasphemous imperial religion using one of their creations - krakens - as divine figureheads ruling the smaller and more humanoid underwater species in their stead. They maintain an oppressive theocratic state broken into castes based on species. Sahuagin, ixitxachitl, kuo-toa are the enforcers of their rule. Merfolk, tritons, sea elves, locathah are all subjugated species. The aboleths view more humanoid body types as reflections of the despised terrestrial gods, and generally seek to punish or mutate species of those types. Storm giants are the great enemy - descendants of titans and distant offspring and relatives of the terrestrial gods.

The empire breeds and controls many aquatic monstrosities like enormous sharks, sea serpents, and various other titanic carnivores to use as mounts or living war machines; but has limited reach on land. Their armies are outfitted in weapons of magically-imbued coral and bone; and armor of fish scales and chitinous plates, harvested from giant bio-engineered crustaceans. Metal implements are difficult to craft underwater; and prone to rapid corrosion. They do occasionally make use of bronze, forged by slaves in submarine air pockets or stolen from surface-dwellers. Once covered in a layer of verdigris, the metal holds up well in seawater. The empire's lower-caste laborers farm seaweed, kelp, schools of bait fish, oyster beds as food for their ravening masses. The higher castes farm sentient, aquatic, lower-caste humanoids to serve as sacrifices to their kraken overlords; channeling souls and spiritual power to serve the fell ambitions of their aboleth masters.

The empire raids the drylanders occasionally for food, slaves, and sacrifices. But because their armies of monsters have difficulty surviving on land and because they have very limited access to arms and armor of metal, they tend not to try and conquer territory on land. Instead they send spies to destabilize and sow discord among terrestrial nations. They foment wars, conflict, and distrust. They work to turn land-dwellers away from their gods at every opportunity, converting them to the worship of false powers if not the kraken figureheads in an effort to subvert the hated terrestrial deities at the aboleths' direction. The aboleths have created a species of shapeshifter that can pass as a dryland humanoid. But these creatures are imperfect - sometimes their facial expressions are a bit off, they must immerse themselves in saltwater periodically, and smell faintly of fish if not masked with perfumes or other artificial scents. These agents often attempt to gain rank and influence or steal the lives of those with rank and influence among the land-dwellers to serve the goals of the empire.