Hold Person versus Tasha's Hideous Laughter

[Thanee]

I suppose this has been discussed already, but still...

Don't you also think Hold Person is kinda weak compared to Tasha's Hideous Laughter now?

The latter is one spell level lower and can target something other than humanoid (judging from the standard situation, that the caster is humanoid), even though with a penalty.

The only advantages Hold Person has, is mostly the better range and that it actually renders the target helpless instead of only negating the ability to act (the difference is rather minor in practice, however).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Camarath]

The only advantages Hold Person has, is mostly the better range and that it actually renders the target helpless instead of only negating the ability to act (the difference is rather minor in practice, however).

I would not consider -4 to AC vs melee, having ones Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0, and being subject Coup de Grace as minor.

 

[Thanee]

Tasha's also gives a -4 to AC for being prone!

Sure AC is still lower for the helpless one, and yes you can CDG him, but that doesn't change much at the outcome of an encounter, except in extremely rare circumstances. The target of Tasha's is equally dead usually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

On the contrary, Hold Person is a full spell level higher and the target can save every round (including the first) to break free of the spell!

All this for the higher range (that roughly balances the higher spell level, I think) and the above difference?

Bye
Thanee

 

[dcollins]

I agree. Hold Person sounds very weak in 3.5.

My group still plays 3.0 and it wasn't even terribly powerful in those rules, to begin with.

 

[Camarath]

If you don't place any value on making your traget Helpless then Hold Person is far weaker than Hideous Laughter. I personally feel that making the traget Helpless somewhat makes up for Hold Person's disadvantages when compared to Hideous Laughter. Hideous Laughter is IMO a very strong 2nd level spell.

 

[Staffan]

Me, I consider Hold Person a 2nd level spell that wizards get delayed access to, not a 3rd level spell that clerics get early. As a 2nd level spell, Hold Person is just fine.

Also, I think Flame Strike should be considered a 4th level spell that clerics get delayed access to, and thus have a limit of 10d6 in damage. All spells should be considered to be the level where they first can be accessed.

 

[Camarath]

All spells should be considered to be the level where they first can be accessed.

Do you think Hideous Laughter should be considered a 1st level spell wizards get delayed access as well?

 

[Thanee]

If you don't place any value on making your traget Helpless then Hold Person is far weaker than Hideous Laughter.

It's not, that I do not value the helpless advantage, but I just can't see how it makes up for the difference.

Bye
Thanee

 

[MacMathan]

What always struck me odd about the 3.5 changes was there was a concerted effort to make Hold Person weaker while they went and made Tasha's even better(Duration based on level now), when I don't remember anyone complaining about it in the first place. I would really like to know waht the theory on that was.