Hold Person versus Tasha's Hideous Laughter

[Elder-Basilisk]

I know I never complained about Tasha's being weak because I never thought about it at all. I looked at it, thought, "why on earth would anyone ever want to know that spell (unless they're an enchanter and have no other options at 2nd level)?" and then went on with playing spellcasters who ignored it.

Beefing up Tasha's is a good move. Nerfing hold person like they did was dumb.

 

[Staffan]

Do you think Hideous Laughter should be considered a 1st level spell wizards get delayed access as well?

Revision: Spells should be balanced for the earliest level primary spellcasters (wizards, clerics, druids) get them. Partial spellcasters have wonky spell lists, which gives odd effects for this sort of thing.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Beefing up Tasha's is a good move. Nerfing hold person like they did was dumb.

I will respectfully disagree.

Hold Person has always been an uber 2nd level offensive spell "justified" by the Cleric class being a defensive class (!!!). At last the new Hold Person is now actually appropriate to its theme and spell level.

IMO the 3.0 Hold Person really should be a 4th or 5th level spell, sacred bovines be damned.

 

[Darklone]

I'm happy with Hold Person now and houseruled Tashas in the same way: It allows a new save each round as a full round action.

Tashas is particularly deadly now as Bard spell level 1... and you can target far more creatures with it than with Hold Person.

 

[Newbie]

Correct me if im wrong but tashias is a compulsion meaning alot of sub types have imunities to it

Hold person in 3.0 was WAY to powerful, any class that doesnt have will save as a main save is DEAD, my level 13 fighter was held by a 5 cleric, because i just messed up the will save got like a 6 roll and for that i was dead! Killed CDG! every round until i failed the fort save of 15 ( by rolling a one) but now a high level char isnt DEAD and gone because of a bad roll (no level 13 anything should fall to a level 5 and some bandits)

But if it was tashias i wouldnt be helpless nor would i be dead!

 

[Camarath]

Correct me if im wrong but tashias is a compulsion meaning alot of sub types have imunities to it

Both spells are Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] spells.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Hold person in 3.0 was WAY to powerful, any class that doesnt have will save as a main save is DEAD, my level 13 fighter was held by a 5 cleric, because i just messed up the will save got like a 6 roll and for that i was dead! Killed CDG! every round until i failed the fort save of 15 ( by rolling a one) but now a high level char isnt DEAD and gone because of a bad roll (no level 13 anything should fall to a level 5 and some bandits)

But if it was tashias i wouldnt be helpless nor would i be dead!

Correct. 3.5 reasoning for the Hold Person spell change: Low-Level, relatively instant death spell where player sits around and does nothing for several rounds (i.e. in real world translating = death or quite possibly hours of boredom for long combats). So boring or death spell for victims = bad. Thus the change. Though, if this happens to be some folk's idea of fun...more power to you.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The save DC of CdG is 10 + dmg, not just 15. That fighter should have died even earlier.

Hold person got nerfed because of the CdG effect. If you want to knock out an opponent without the CdG, try hideous laughter.

 

[jgsugden]

There is a huge difference between helpless vs prone with no ability to attack. I've seen hold person cast a few dozen times in 3.5. In a majority of the successful castings, it was followed by a CdG.

Either spell will likely be a death sentence for a victim. The difference is how that death sentence can be carried out. In the case of being held, the death sentence is much easier to deliver. In situations where time is of the essence, this can make all the difference in the world.

 

[Felix]

As for the changes to Hold Person, I saw an argument that the changes actually made is less likely for a person affected by Hold Person to survive the encounter. The reasoning was that in 3.0, spellcasters knew that if a target was Held, they would not be doing anything dangerous for the known duration. This meant that their forces could be deployed elsewhere against the rest of the party while leaving the one character Held for however long. But the save every round changes the incentives of the casting party; the enemies can no longer afford to allow the Held target more will saves. The enemies must CdG the Held person right now or he'll be fighting them in 6 seconds.

Interesting argument, eh? Actually the changes make Hold Person much less useful in a "round up the escaping prisoners" situation, and create a spell which is used almost only to render an enemy vulnerable to CdG.

As for Tasha's, it has taken the role of denying movement. It can stop prisoners from escaping without having to kill them since once you see the target is affected, you no longer have to bother with him, and can move on to round up the other fugitives.