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Message: <blockquote data-quote="goldenskull" data-source="post: 9383610" data-attributes="member: 7045950">Let's be fair. A level 3 fighter can probably afford splint for 20AC or 21AC with Defensive Fighting Style. Thugs have 32 HP each and fighter has 34. Let's assume vanilla Fighter has Champion subclass for Improved Crit and the Thugs roll higher for init.S&B Fighter with Dueling Style @20AC:Thugs get 10.99 DPR. Fighter gets 15.15 DPR first turn and 7.575 subsequent turns.1st: Fighter 21HP. Thug 1 19hp.2nd: Fighter 10HP +9 = 19hp from second wind. Thug 1 4hp.3rd: Fighter 8hp. Thug 1 drops. 2nd thug's DPR is only 3.1 now.4th: Fighter 5hp. Thug 2 25hp.5th: Fighter 2hp. Thug 2 18hp.6th: Fighter drops.S&B Fighter with Defensive Style @21AC:Thugs get 9.285 DPR. Fighter gets 12.15 DPR first turn and 6.075 subsequent turns.1st: Fighter 25hp. Thug 1 20hp.2nd: Fighter 16hp. Thug 1 14hp.3rd: Fighter 7hp+9=16hp second wind. Thug 1 8hp.4th: Fighter 6hp. Thug 1 2hp.5th: Fighter drops.PAM fighter with GWF @18AC:Thugs get 4.2+7.035=11 first turn (only one gets advantage) and 14.07 subsequent turns. Fighter gets 27.615 first turn from Action Surge + OA and 12.45 subsequent turns.1st: Fighter 23hp. Thug 1 5hp.2nd: Fighter 9hp+9=18hp from second wind. Thug 1 drops even without PAM bonus attack at a DPR of 6.9. Thug 2's DPR is now 4.23rd: Fighter 14hp. Thug 2 20hp.4th: Fighter 10hp. Thug 2 8hp.5th: Fighter 6hp. Thug 2 drops.Now for revised Monk with 21hp with 12 Con because you don't need 14Con to be "halfway viable".Thugs get roughly 10.088 DPR (EDIT: precisely 9.862). Monk DPR 15.2 with flurry and 10.15 without.1st: Monk 11hp. Thug 1 18hp.2nd: Monk 1hp. Thug 1 3hp.3rd: Monk drops.But what if - unlike the fighter - the monk has a chance to get initiative? 56% chance the monk loses init to at least 1 and drops. 43.56% of getting init on both and MAYBE surviving round 3.3rd: Thug 1 drops. Thug 2 takes 10 damage for 22hp and DPR drops to 1.5026. Monk drops.BUT what if - like I said - the monk needs 14 Con to be "halfway viable"? So you've got 24hp instead of 21 and start round 3 with 4hp instead?3rd: Thug 1 drops. Thug 2 takes 10 damage for 22hp and DPR drops to 1.5026. Monk 3hp and runs out of monk juice.4th: Thug 2 12hp. Monk 1hp and runs out of monk juice.5th: Thug 2 2hp. Monk drops.Like I said originally: the revised monk is "balanced", with power weighted towards earlier levels and also it can do cool grappley/shovey stuff. It's not OP by any means and - like I pointed out to [USER=7035894]@Clint_L[/USER] - it's ABSOLUTELY pigeonholed into Dex/Wis/Con twink build. If the monk in my example had 18hp from 10 Con, it wouldn't have survived Round 2, less than half the S&B tank which is the most suboptimal example.Oh yeah and in the hypothetical scenario where we're using UA rules if/when they roll out, the fighter probably has Weapon Mastery too so the halberd fighter is making a cleave attack with every hit too and the S&B's are negating advantage on one of the attacks per turn.</blockquote>

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