D&D General + Homebrew Brainstorm to bring back prepared Vancian Casting +

[el-remmen]

B. you always successfully cast, but you're rolling to see if you keep the spell. So you could potentially get multiple casts out of one prepared spell, but preparing it multiple times would mean greater guarantee on being able to use that spell consistently.

I use the above in my OSR homebrew rules.

I do something similar, but just for cantrips. Cantrips are unlimited unless you fail the spell check roll upon casting it, in which case it still goes off, but you lose access until after a Long Rest. However, you may spend a spell slot to cast a cantrip with no chance of failure. The fail chance is fairly easy, but not a given. d20 + Prof Bonus + spell casting mod vs. DC 11 (nat 1 being auto failure).

 

[Distracted DM]

or just make upcasting worth it.

IE: fireball:
2nd level evocation, fire
Action
150ft range
dex save
deal 5d6 fire damage, 15ft radius. half damage on a save.
you can reduce radius by 5ft to increase damage by 1d6.
if you reduce radius to 0, it becomes ranged spell attack that deals half damage on a miss.

Upcasting:
3rd level: 8d6, 20ft radius
4th level: 10d6, 25ft radius
5th level: 12d6, 30ft radius
6th level: 15d6, 35ft radius
7th level: 17d6, 40ft radius
8th level: 19d6, 45ft radius
9th level: 22d6, 50ft radius

Everyone knows fireball is a 3rd level spell, can't go around altering sacred cows! Only sort of kidding there

IIRC fireball capped out previously, I'm thinking of 2e- that was one reason to pull out delayed blast fireball, bigger damage cap!

 

[Horwath]

Everyone knows fireball is a 3rd level spell, can't go around altering sacred cows! Only sort of kidding there

IIRC fireball capped out previously, I'm thinking of 2e- that was one reason to pull out delayed blast fireball, bigger damage cap!

it was capped in 3E also, at 10d6, but that was probably due to autascaling with levels.

PF1 did have metamagic for +1 spell level that raised max damage dice by 5, Intensified spell feat, so at 15th level you could use 4th level spell slot for 15d6 fireball.

 

[Distracted DM]

I use the above in my OSR homebrew rules.

Is this a 5e-OSR homebrew ruleset? Care to share? I'm curious how you work the roll-to-cast.

Aaanyway, I'm still noodling around with this whole idea- I'm torn between options 2 and 3, but I also realized that while I'm at it I'd like to address low level spell slots becoming utility-only at later levels, which seems like it'd have to mean building upcasting into those lower-level slots, like raising the floor/auto-upcasting them for the same level-slot cost. Of course that means you're upping the power of spellcasters.. I run A5E so the martials got a solid boost to power via maneuvers, so I'm less concerned about that. If the spellcasters have to choose all their prepped spells at the start of the day, the higher power from lower level slots being upcast isn't too crazy.. after all, cantrips scale up over time... why not low-level spell slots?

 

[Koloth]

Seems like you are trying to return to the D&D 3.X / PF1 version of wizard. That wizard had prepared spells slots with the entire list of spells possible(if in spell book) while the sorcerer had the spell point system with a much reduced list of spells per level. I suggest starting there since it is a well developed rule set.

 

[Distracted DM]

I think I have the basic idea down, I'm wondering if there are any holes I'm not seeing or obvious breakages.

Quick n Dirty rules:
prepared casters (wizards clerics etc) get a number of prepared spells per day equal to their spell slots per day table (4 1st, 3 2nd, etc). They choose and prepare from their known spells at the beginning of the day.
Casting a spell requires a spellcasting ability check. On a success, the spell is cast and can be cast again. On a failure, the spell is cast but that prepared spell slot is expended. The spellcast check is based on the level of the spell, not the level that it's prepared in- this incentivizes upcasting lower-level spells. DC 10+Spell Level was my first thought, but I'm wondering if it should be higher since failure means a successful cast.. I want there to be an incentive to choose this classic system, to have to consider your spell prep at the start of the day, but I don't want it to be massively overpowered. So I guess I should make it a higher DC...

I'm considering an optional dangerous rule: critical success upcasts the spell.. to how much? Donno. Crit fail means spell miscast table (TBD). The only iffy point I'd see on this is that some spells dont have upcast options, so that kind of sucks. I guess you could say that only upcastable spells are affected. I'm not really attached to this optional rule, I was thinking it'd be player choice when they make the character, sort of an alternate class feature.

NWN spellbook pictured just for the nostalgia

 

[nevin]

..

 

[Tigris]

I dont think there are any real holes, but its just a high amount of randomness involved, since the number of spell slots each day can varry a lot. And with your critical rule its even worse, if anything I would do the opposite. If misscast (and losing a spell slot) then the spell is more powerfull to make randomness feel a bit less bad. "Oh it was so strong I could not control it" is also a nice flavour fit.


Also why would you want to incentize upcasting lower level spells? Not saying its bad, but I want to understand the reason. Because this can lead potentially to just using the same low level spell for the whole career, because its saver to use that than high level spells especially if it has a good upcast.

Normally you want to incentize that players use different spells, aka new spells they did not use before, therefore giving the new highest level spells an advantage.


Also is there a specific reason why you need spell slots of different levels?


13th age works well with prepared spells and they all are automatically max level. Having spell slots of many different levels brings potential a lot of complexity.

 

[Distracted DM]

I think I have the basic idea down, I'm wondering if there are any holes I'm not seeing or obvious breakages.

Quick n Dirty rules:
prepared casters (wizards clerics etc) get a number of prepared spells per day equal to their spell slots per day table (4 1st, 3 2nd, etc). They choose and prepare from their known spells at the beginning of the day.
Casting a spell requires a spellcasting ability check. On a success, the spell is cast and can be cast again. On a failure, the spell is cast but that prepared spell slot is expended. The spellcast check is based on the level of the spell, not the level that it's prepared in- this incentivizes upcasting lower-level spells. DC 10+Spell Level was my first thought, but I'm wondering if it should be higher since failure means a successful cast.. I want there to be an incentive to choose this classic system, to have to consider your spell prep at the start of the day, but I don't want it to be massively overpowered. So I guess I should make it a higher DC...

I'm considering an optional dangerous rule: critical success upcasts the spell.. to how much? Donno. Crit fail means spell miscast table (TBD). The only iffy point I'd see on this is that some spells dont have upcast options, so that kind of sucks. I guess you could say that only upcastable spells are affected. I'm not really attached to this optional rule, I was thinking it'd be player choice when they make the character, sort of an alternate class feature.

NWN spellbook pictured just for the nostalgia
View attachment 428262

I wonder if it'd be better if the spellcasting check used your proficiency bonus instead of your spellcasting stat. I've been considering what the DCs would be, what the chances of success would be using different DCs and different check methods.

DC10+Spell Level, using Spellcast stat:
Level 1 character, level 1 spell, DC 11 and they have a +3 or +4 to the check.
Level 9 character, level 5 spell, DC 15 and they have +5 to that check.
Level 13 character, level 7 spell, DC 17 and they have +5 or +6 to that check (figure there's some magic in there somewhere by that level).
Level 18 character, level 9 spell, DC 19 with a +6 or +7.

Do I want level 7 spells to be recastable many times per day? With an almost 50/50 chance, figure some inspiration uses in there, that seems too powerful. I don't want to balance around tier 4 play, but a level 18 wizard is recasting level 9 spells with some reliability. No thank you.

If we increase the DC a little, say 12+Spell Level, that moves the needle a bit but not much.
Making the DC 8+ 2xSpell Level means that that 9th level character casting a 5th level spell is going vs DC 18 with a +5... that's not bad. A level 13 character with a 7th level spell is looking at DC 22. Hm. Still possible. This might be the move? A level 18 character with 9th lvl spell is DC 28- not possible to recast. I don't think I have a problem with 9th level spells not being recastable, or remotely possibly with some help from some Guidance or something.


Using PB makes things a lot flatter.
DC10+Spell Level, using PB:
Lvl 1 char, lvl 1 spell, DC 11 with a +2.
Lvl 9 char, lvl 5 spell, DC 15 with a +4.
Lvl 13 char, lvl 7 spell, DC 17 with a +5.
Lvl 18 char, lvl 9 spell, DC 19 with a +6.

Not loving this. So Spellcasting ability check, DC 8+ 2xSpell Level seems solid. It's a little kludgy, but not bad.

 

[Cruentus]

The thing I’ve noticed about roll-to-cast systems is that they usually rework all of the spells to remove ‘to hit rolls’, saves, etc. If the spell goes off, it works. So it would take a bit more work in re-doing the spells with that in mind.

One house rule I’ve seen for roll-to-cast (for ShadowDark) is that you only lose the spell if you fail after you’ve cast it once. So if you roll and fail, the spell doesn’t go off (but any fumbles may apply). If you try it again, and succeed, the spell works and you keep it. But the next failure means it goes away until the rest.

I’d also likely add a +1 to the roll-to-cast for every time you cast the same spell (or make the fumble chance go up) so that it isn’t as easy to just spam the same thing over and over.

I’m working on converting SDs and/or Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures spellcasting systems to my OSE game.