Homebrew: Culture Taken out of player Races.

[Sylrae]

So here's my Idea (and something I'd like to do for my upcoming campaign).
Going through the races, and anything that is cultural and/or something that is learned, gets taken out and replaced, and the races are adjusted to be the same power level without the culture built in. At the moment, different races have different amounts of cultural abilities. My goal is to have none of it prepackaged into the races.

Cultural aspects of races are moved into traits or feats. Then if the GM would like, he can grant a couple additional traits at level 1 that have to come from the cultural section.

By doing it this way, there can be mechanical differences between dwarves and elves from different countries, without having to redesign the race for each one. Additionally, if your dwarf was raised in say: Cheliax, (and there are no dwarven cultures in cheliax) the GM could allow you to have some chelish cultural abilities instead. Because you never had the chance to learn dwarven weapons, orc and goblin hatred, or how to dodge giants.

It also deals with the desire some people have for an elf for every day of the week, without making it take alot of work, or making it only apply to elves.

Is there any interest in this, or is it just me?

Here's a Starting attempt (It doesnt cover all of them yet).

All races lose weapon familiarity and any automatic languages.


Dwarves
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Dwarves are both tough and wise, but also a bit gruff.
Medium: Dwarves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Slow and Steady: Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. (see darkvision).
Hardy: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Stability: Dwarves receive a +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.

Dwarves Lose:
Defensive Training: Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Greed: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks made to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
Stonecunning: Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on Perception checks to potentially notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or floors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, whether or not they are actively looking.
Not sure what they should get to replace them...

Elves
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but their form is frail.
Medium: Elves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light (see low-light vision).
Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.

Gnomes
+2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Gnomes are physically weak but surprisingly hardy, and their attitude makes them naturally agreeable.
Small: Gnomes are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD), and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Gnomes have a base speed of 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Gnomes can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light (see low-light vision.)
Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with a Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities:
1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the gnome's Charisma modifier.
Keen Senses: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.

Gnomes lose (In addition to weapon familiarity and automatic languages):
Defensive Training: Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Hatred: Gnomes receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the reptilian and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
Illusion Resistance: Gnomes get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells or effects.

What should they get to replace them? .....

Halflings
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Halflings are nimble and strong-willed, but their small stature makes them weaker than other races.
Small: Halflings are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD), and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Halflings have a base speed of 20 feet.
Fearless: Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Halfling Luck: Halflings receive a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
Keen Senses: Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Sure-Footed: Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks.
Child-Like Appearance: Halflings receive a +4 modifier to Disguise checks when trying to pass themselves off as human children between the ages of 6 and 9.

Haven't gotten around to looking at the other 3 races yet, but Dwarves and Gnomes will be the hard ones.

 

[Systole]

Suggest using [Pathfinder] Golden's Guide to Race Building - Giant in the Playground Forums to help balance things.

 

[Sylrae]

Ah yes. I read the original thread on the Paizo forums a long time ago. That system has a number of problems, but it's definitely better than nothing.

I will use it to tweak these races for sure, but I agree with some of the comments I've seen about it overpricing some things, particularly the more obscure immunities.

 

[paradox42]

It's a good place to start from, though yes, some things are overpriced in Golden's system. I used it (after some tweaking) to balance the 70-odd races of my homebrew, many of which are just cultural variations really (so in effect, going the opposite way from the OP here). Worked great, IMO- though of course most are as yet untested since that's a lot of races.

Going by Golden's Guide, Dwarves are down about -3 points, Elves (who lose the Weapon Proficiency) are down -1, Gnomes are also down -3. Elves were an 11 to Human's 10 anyway, so they're mostly all right as-is, but the Dwarves and Gnomes you'll definitely need to do some replacement. The Golden Guide says a feat is worth +4, so perhaps a bonus feat for each race?

I gave all Dwarves Master Craftsman in my setting, though that seems somewhat culture-specific so you probably don't want it. Giving bonus feats that aren't somewhat cultural in appearance will be tough. Toughness, of course, is another possibility.

We've got Paizo's version coming in the new Races Guide next year, but that's a long time to wait if you need these culture-less races Right Now.

 

[Sylrae]

Some decent advice. Yeah, I know about the advanced race guide, but I need these in a few weeks, not next year.

Basically it comes down to: "Would it make sense if an infant had this ability, with no training, or is it at least something that could happen spontaneously at adolescence (without being absurd)?" and if the answer is no, it doesn't belong in a race.

I dont need all the races in the Pathfinder core book though; so that might save me a bit of work.

The guide is discouraging in a few ways though; namely when I get to the races for my setting I'm going to need things it doesn't cover.
A large Race
A race with the type/subtype outsider(demon)
A race with the type/subtype outsider(devil)
A race with the type fey
A 0 point undead template which I can apply to any of the races with the humanoid type.
Oh! and a Large Size playable race of Dragons with wings. - this one will need racial levels, for sure. (and I likely wont allow it until the party hits level 5)
Heh. Needless to say, this should be interesting.

For now I'll stick to stuff in the corebook, and work on the other stuff when I'm done. But yeah, that guide disallows many of the things I feel are lacking for player races.

 

[paradox42]

In that case, you might consider a lesson I learned while running the 3.X version of my homebrew setting: it is not important that your setting's options balance with Core, just so long as they balance with each other. If you want a Large race, then go ahead and make a Large race; just total up the points of your new race (possibly after tweaking Golden's Guide a bit; I used Large races too and came to the conclusion that it's actually worth about +8) and if it happens to be above the average for Core- then give the Core races new abilities to compensate.

I learned the above lesson because my homebrew is a post-apocalyptic setting, and my long-ago 2nd-Edition AD&D version incorporated many things from Gamma World and Dark Sun to help it come alive; when I updated to 3.0 in 2000-2001 I ended up with a lot of races that were significantly stronger than those in the core PHB. Over the years of running the game, I discovered that PCs made using my rules were able to take on challenges about +2 CR higher than they should have been able to handle according to the core rules; however, this just meant that I as the DM had to tweak encounters and plotlines a bit to make a challenging and fun game. The players didn't have to worry about any of that; as long as they balanced reasonably well against each other, it just made for extra-cool stories when they took out monsters above their level.

So, making extra-powerful races for your setting means you as GM have to keep it in mind when designing encounters; however, as long as no players can outshine other players by picking a more powerful race, then it doesn't matter that none of them take races as given in the Core Rulebook.

For the record, the baseline "point value" of the races in the PF version of my high-power setting is 38 as opposed to the 10 used in Core. I've managed to build some pretty interesting stuff with those 38 points.

 

[BriarMonkey]

... it is not important that your setting's options balance with Core, just so long as they balance with each other. ...

This. A thousand times this!

If you are rebalancing the races anyway, such as making them more modular with regards to their environments, then you only need concern yourself with making sure they work against one-another.

And as was mentioned, if you have a truely uber race, then making a "base" race that can be augmented with racial levels is a better option as that can balance and scale with the others.

Good luck with your endevour and may you and your players enjoy!

(And as an aside, I do like the idea of seperating out environment/culture. I think that may have been some of the inspiration for the alternate racial traits given in the Advanced Player's Guide.)

 

[paradox42]

I should mention, for further help to the OP, that the PF version of my setting includes many races with creature types other than Humanoid- so I threw the Creature Type admonishment in Golden's Guide (in essence, he says "Don't do it!!!") out the window. The important thing with creature types is figuring out how they stack up against a basic Humanoid with exactly the same traits otherwise; for example, if you want to make a Fey, then make a Fey with all the Elf traits (including ability score adjustments) except the creature type, and see what the Fey version gains on top of the basics.

If you do your own analysis, you may come to different conclusions than I did, but I'll list here the point values I eventually assigned various non-Humanoid creature types: Aberration +8, Fey +8, Monstrous Humanoid +10, Outsider +12 (with more cost if the subtype grants additional stuff, like Demon or Devil), Plant +20 (or more, depending on immunities).

I don't have time to detail how I arrived at these numbers now, since I have to leave here in a few minutes; however, if you want me to detail one later I'll be happy to (once I have time).

 

[Sylrae]

Wow. I really like that Idea, and it opens up the number of options you can have as player characters, quite a bit.

Something like: 20 points, plus 3 cultural traits (which will all also be custom) and perhaps one regular trait (from the usual list, possibly excluding race and cultural traits.)



Here's a question though: In Golden's Guide (which is a slight tweak on VoodooMike's guide on the pathfinder forums)...

Which is the better "point buy" race building method, and out of it and the other alternatives, which one do you prefer?

VM/Golden's is pretty barebones and not very detailed.

Then you have 2(3)? Published options:

LPJ's Race Creation Cookbook, which I bought for 3.x a long time ago, and frankly, I don't recall much about it, that was before I was making many houserules and new races and whatnot (or had the grasp on the system that I do today). Some of the reviews rate it highly, but others point at terrible balance. There is a PF Version, but the reviews for it paint it to be poorly constructed and explained, and not actually built for the Pathfinder system.

And then there is the VERY fleshed out system UpperKrust came up with, in his "Challenging Challenge ratings" which is what I've always used. It covers everything from races to classes to monsters in terms of what things are worth. The downside is it's dated, designed for 3.5, and not as well organized as I'd like. When I say designed for 3.5, I mean that for CRs and Classes, not so much for races. The number of "points" things should be getting is entirely based on what things got in D&D 3.5, and therefore, I'd say the numbers would be low for classes and CRs compared to Pathfinder, but I couldn't tell you by how much. It seemed to have everything very well thought out though, and the costs assigned to abilities seemed well balanced. I believe there are a few specific things pointed out as problematic, but not many. Found It! (Was not easy to track down.)

So.. What would you guys advocate using to balance things? My guess would be Upper Krust v5, with a small number of tweaks, but I'm interested in what everyone else has to say in the matter.

 

[Greg K]

This is something that I had wanted with 3e and have wanted to do for a long time. I had just never got past stripping out the non-biological stuff.