D&D 4E Homebrew RPG (4e based): Heroes of Legend

[invokethehojo]

Also, I have a question for ya'll.

I'm finally getting a group around to playtest this, and I don't want to mess with all the checks for increased skills (jumping, swimming and climbing) so I'm thinking up a house rule. It's pretty easy to just say that for each rank in climbing or swimming your climb or swim speed goes up by one (so three ranks in climb means you have a climb speed of 3)... However jumping isn't so easy. I think I'll say that for every rank in jump you get a jump speed of 1 horizontally and 1/2 vertically, so with 4 ranks in jump you can jump 4 squares horizontally and/or 2 squares vertically.

What do you think?

 

[invokethehojo]

Ok, version 1.5 just went up. Fixed a few typos and clarified a few things. Changed the extras for Strike and Melee Weapon a bit. Changed Second Wind to drop the +2 to defenses (since there could be multiple second winds in 1 encounter). Added some more house rules, including updated rules for tripping and disarming.

 

[invokethehojo]

Ok, I found a group to playtest my game and we begin soon... might have to wait till after the holidays. It's an apocalyptic modern campaign. I found a few more errors and things that needed fixing (deleted the Multi-tasker trait entirely... what was I thinking?) so version 1.6 is up. Also fixed the character and enemy sheets a little. I won't bother putting anymore versions up here till I run a few sessions and see how it goes.

 

[C_M2008]

Doesn't feel very super.

 

[invokethehojo]

Doesn't feel very super.

With such a detailed and thorough argument he has totally deflated my hopes and dreams.
"Doesn't feel very super"... those words will haunt me forever.

 

[C_M2008]

With such a detailed and thorough argument he has totally deflated my hopes and dreams.
"Doesn't feel very super"... those words will haunt me forever.

I'm not attacking you or your work, relax, it's a summary of how I feel about it, which is all I had time for at the time.

Here is some commentary then:
-20 points for abilities seems low for a supers game, still in the normal range of D&D characters really.
-This is further hampered by your ability score cap, which restricts players from having truly "super" scores.
-"maximum rank in an ability"; seems very 3e and not 4e. Also not very heroic to limit the character in such a way, if I want to put all my points in teleport or regenerate for example let me.
-for trying to keep things simple, several new terms are introduced.
-taking multiple second winds is very heroic, fits the genre.
-not going to comment on all of the powers, but regeneration could actually give regeneration?
-dice scale: seems unnecessary, why not allow the buying of more dice instead of scaling automatically?
-The Super Ability bonuses seem better suited to extras and unnecessarily complicated to remember if I have multiple super scores
-extras seem like they could be purchased instead of being restricted to one/level.
-traits: see above.
-having to build the opponents from scratch seems like a lot of work(very 3e), suggestions on reflavoured monsters from 4e would have been a nice touch, or some standard foes of each type at levels 1-3.


In summary there are too many restrictions on what I can build as a character inherent in the system. Your suggestions at the end help, but to make it do what I want would require some large rewrites.

So too many restricitons= Doesn't feel very Super.

Clearer?

 

[invokethehojo]

Sorry. I don’t use EnWorld much anymore because I see so many people who only want to flame and complain, so that’s what I thought you were doing. I apologize.

I wrote up a detailed response to your post but my computer crashed and I lost it. I hope I can say it all again correctly.

This past week your post and comments from my soon-to-be playtesters have made me realize just how bad a communicator I can be. I thought I had explained my vision of this game but I can see now that I needed to be more clear.

I like super-hero games, but, in my experience, they are too over the top to be serious and hard to define in terms of a battle mat and other things. When I started writing HoL I wanted characters to have powers that they developed and that defined who they were and what role the played in a group… which to me seemed similar to a super hero type character. But I wanted them to still be vulnerable and very human so they would still be interesting to play and not apart from the rest of humanity. I chose the term “super-themed” to describe this.

I envision this game allowing you to play a campaign in a largely normal world where characters stand out from the normal populace because have incredible abilities that allow them to shape world events. But they are still people, they still have to eat & sleep, they still need shelter from the cold, and they still must rely on their wits to get them through tough situations.

The leveling dynamic in HoL is designed to start characters off as barely better than the average person, and eventually bring them to a very powerful position… but one that is still vulnerable to large numbers of average persons. This way the players always have to keep in mind their place in the setting, they can’t just forget how they effect the world around them, because that world can still come back and bite them.

I suppose a more apt analogy would be to liken HoL characters to characters from martial arts movies, like “Hero” and “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon”. Above normal, but still firmly anchored in the normal world.

I hope that clarifies what I intended this game to be.

 

[invokethehojo]

I’ll address some of your comments that weren’t covered by the above explanation.

-"maximum rank in an ability"; seems very 3e and not 4e. Also not very heroic to limit the character in such a way, if I want to put all my points in teleport or regenerate for example let me.

That was purposeful. My goal in creating HoL was to use 4e as a base, but combine it with elements from other d20 games. These other elements have the benefit of being playtested (albeit in a different context) and players will also probably be familiar with them.
As far as your other concern: I always felt one of the drawbacks to super games was that characters were usually one sided. HoL isn’t intended for true super hero characters, and I like that it makes well rounded characters the norm (this also keeps it similar to 4e so it’s not a totally different experience).

-for trying to keep things simple, several new terms are introduced.

I wanted to keep my powers separate from 4e powers, so I called them abilities. This kind of thing happened a few times.

-not going to comment on all of the powers, but regeneration could actually give regeneration?

If you can find a way of doing this that doesn’t destroy the healing surge/short rest mechanic let me know. This was the best solution I could come up with.

-dice scale: seems unnecessary, why not allow the buying of more dice instead of scaling automatically?

Either one would work, I just chose this way because I don’t like rolling and adding up a handful of d6’s every round.

-The Super Ability bonuses seem better suited to extras and unnecessarily complicated to remember if I have multiple super scores

They are extras actually, I just seperated them for organization purposes. At the beginning of the extras column I state this.

-extras seem like they could be purchased instead of being restricted to one/level.

They are purchased actually. Reread the extras section, you’ll see that you have to buy them (2 points a piece) but you can only have as many as you have levels.

-traits: see above.

You could easily make traits purchasable, I just did it this way to emulate the feat mechanic. If you wanted to make them purchasable you would have to assign them costs.

-having to build the opponents from scratch seems like a lot of work(very 3e), suggestions on reflavoured monsters from 4e would have been a nice touch, or some standard foes of each type at levels 1-3.

As I make enemies for my playtest I’ll post them here. I found that when I DM’ed 4e I constantly forgot enemies powers so I usually ended up rebuilding them anyway so this method doesn’t bother me. Also, it allows for house rules to be implemented easier, since the rules are the same for everyone, when a house rule change something everyone is still equal.

Thanks for your feedback

 

[Tripgnosis]

Ok, first off, let me admit that I have only skimmed some of the comments on this thread. I have 2 children under 4, so it gets hard to focus on any one thing most of the time. So I apologize if I restate something that has already been posted or if it's in any other way apparent that I hadn't read the thread thoroughly.

First, I'd like to comment on c_m2008's post

-20 points for abilities seems low for a supers game, still in the normal range of D&D characters really.

I kind of agree with this, but I'm also aware that a super-super comic books style setting was not the goal here. More of a mild super-heroes setting a bit like the Heroes TV show.

-This is further hampered by your ability score cap, which restricts players from having truly "super" scores.

I agree with removing the caps. I think it would be much simpler to just remove the ability score caps and then not bother with super-ability scores as a power

-"maximum rank in an ability"; seems very 3e and not 4e. Also not very heroic to limit the character in such a way, if I want to put all my points in teleport or regenerate for example let me.

again I agree with the abolition of caps. I understand the designers reason for these restrictions. To maintain control and keep things from getting out of hand. But that could be easily enforced by the GM rather than the mechanics. Removing the option to min-max is too restrictive I think. I think it's better left to the GM to enforce natural consequences of having a min-maxed character

-not going to comment on all of the powers, but regeneration could actually give regeneration?

I thought the exact same thing when I looked at this power. I don't really see it as being true regeneration. I don't think true regenartion would destroy the short rest mechanic because it would be a power that would need to be triggered rather than constant. And the healing surge would give you a bigger healing bump on top of what you're regenerating so that mechanic would be fine too

-dice scale: seems unnecessary, why not allow the buying of more dice instead of scaling automatically?

I don't think the dice scale is complicated. But I do like the idea of buying more dice.

-The Super Ability bonuses seem better suited to extras and unnecessarily complicated to remember if I have multiple super scores

Again, I would prefer to simply have no cap on my ability scores rather than a separate mechanic for 'super' ability scores.


Like C_M2008, there are some things I would have done differently, but that's to be expected. No game system is EXACTLY the way any player would have done it. That's why we have homebrew games. IMHO this system is fine as is, no gamebreaking flaws or bad mechanics. I think there are things that could be done to improve it, like some of the suggestions already given, but only as a matter of personal taste and preference.

 

[invokethehojo]

Ok, let me explain my thoughts on two of the above issues.

1) super ability scores. Since I'm making this system myself I don't have a large group of proven designers to help me or a bunch of people paid to playtest things. Because of this the safest route is usually the best. If there are no caps on ability scores then you'll have dudes with +20 to thier attacks rolls at level two. Min/Max characters will hit on any roll that's not a 1, so other characters will be forced to go this route to keep from getting killed... no fun.

2) regeneration. yes, you could make regeneration a power that is triggered granting true regeneration for a certain amount of time... I just couldn't think of a way of doing it that fit with other powers and seemed solid. How will you define how often it can be used, how long it will last, and how much it will regenerate without making a new mechanic? I figured this was the easiest way of doing it that fit with the existing mechanics. If you do figure out a way that everyone in your group likes, just make it a house rule.