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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8251478" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Sure, obviously the person who preferred the non-damage option wanted the non-damage option. That is obvious. But, what you are saying to me is "Behind door one you could choose to take $50, $60,  or $70. To be fair to that option door two should only have $70" Well... door two is going to give more money to more people, because it is equal to the highest amount of money the other people could take. Yes, sure, the people who decided on less money made that choice, but that doesn't change that I feel door two should be offering $60, not $70.I understand what you are saying. I get it. However, healing potentially 60 hp on a bonus action is way too much. That is an insane amount of healing. And you gave them an attack on top of it. And again, sure, the Champion is doing far worse than the battlemaster, and we should try and close that gap. But how much worse is the champion doing compared to the other subclasses? Not how are the other sublcasses stacking up to the Battlemaster. Remove it from the equation for a moment, how does a Champion and an Arcane Archer stack up? Champion and a Samurai? That is what I am more concerned about. I, again, fully agree that the champion could use a bit more buffing. I just want to avoid "everyone has to match the battlemaster" because the Battlemaster offers a lot of flexibility that is harder to compare. And, this discussion has made me wonder, if the Champion is struggling so much with damage, maybe a small damage boost is appropriate. But, the entire ideal of the Champion is simplicity... so maybe give the +prof to all damage. At high levels, that is a lot, a total of +18 or +24 damage every turn... actually more because I gave fighters +7 prof as their capstone, so that would be +28 damage per turn. But it isn't so bad at lower levels. Would that close this damage gap to your satisfaction?Okay, you can't say they couldn't match the output, when you literally have them matching the output (both had 70).  If you are trying to say that the Battlemaster is going to do more damage in later fights... okay. But, I already agree with that. That's why I made the Cavalier recharge on a short rest too.But again, how much of your analysis is the class damage compared to PAM and GWM? Precision attack is a lot more valuable when it has a +13 static on the damage, instead of +3. If the damage gap is coming purely from their abilities, then you don't need the feats. You don't need the Battlemaster to have PAM and GWM, you don't need the Cavalier to have GWM and you can just show them using the same equipment and the same situation. That shows a gap in the strength of the subclass. Because "I can take more advantage of these feats" isn't a design flaw in the subclass, because they might not take that feat. Again, I'm not saying that the Champion doesn't deserve more of a boost. I'm just saying that we need to make sure the comparisons are stripped down to the actual class features, not high-tier builds.</blockquote>

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