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D&D 5E Homebrewing the Battlemaster and Champion

So, I have some family and friends asking me to run and that pushed me on finally finishing this idea that has been rumbling in the back of my head for the last while. I have home-brewed... basically every class to one degree or another, fine-tuning them to fit more in-line with the things I want.

So, straight up, these are going to be at least slightly more powerful than the originals. I don't want them to be bonkers, just more in-line with some of the newer options.

Now, for the champion, I kept it simple and I'll explain some of my thoughts for each class, but I wanted to take a moment and address something that I originally thought, and why I changed my mind. Isn't the battle master awesome? Why change it?

Well, for that, let me go ahead and put up a table for the original Battlemaster

LevelAbilities
3rdAccess to the Superiority system, three maneuvers, 4 dice.

Artisan's Tools
7thKnow your Enemy information

2 new Maneuvers, 1 more die
10thDice become d10's

2 more Maneuvers
15thRelentless

Two More Manuevers, 1 more die
18thDice become d12's


The text in red and bold, those are the only new abilities the Battlemaster gets. And maneuvers never improve, so by the time you hit 10th level, you are grabbing your sixth and seventh choices, the things you didn't want until this point. And while increasing the die size is nice, in effect, they are just averaging a +1 damage to those maneuvers. Is that really an 18th level capstone?

I won't argue that Battlemaster's might be one of the most powerful subclasses out of the gate, but by the time you are hitting the mid to late game, you aren't getting anything new or exciting, you are just doing the same things you have been doing all game. And while it is good damage, every ability has to be balanced to be useable by 3rd level. So, you are getting a 3rd level ability at 15th level? I didn't like that.

So, here are the changes I made to the Battlemaster.

3rd level? No changes. This level works as is.

7th: No change to superiority system upgrades. Dropped "Know Your Enemy" for "Master of a Thousand Plans"

Starting at 7th level, your study of combat and war has given you the opportunity to plan for any encounter. You can no longer be surprised. Additionally, you gain +1 AC when flanked by enemies.

I've never liked "Know your Enemy". It is a vague ribbon ability that only tells you things that I would otherwise just tell people. Like "is their AC higher than yours" well, if they are wearing armor, every single fighter is familiar with all armors, so they are going to be able to tell what the AC is at a glance, not with a minute of observation.

Originally, I tried to rework it, but the more I dug into it, the more I realized that there was just nothing I wanted to sink my teeth into.
So, instead, I thought of what I would want from a master of tactical combat. No longer being able to be surprised in an ambush is a powerful tool, and fits really well with having the most honed battlefield reflexes. I was't entirely sure if that was good enough for a full feature, so I added the +1 AC. In my games, flanking gives the enemy advantage, so this just makes them slightly better in a bad situation.


10th level: Superiority system improvements kept the same, moved down an Improved Relentless

Starting at 10th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 2 superiority die.

Additionally, if a creature fails a save against one of your manuevers during the round, they have disadvantage against further manuevers until the end of your next turn.

So, I used to just have this at 15th, but there were a few thoughts that changed my mind. The first thing is that 11th level is where the Fighter is going to be potentially dropping a lot of dice every turn. By this point a fighter could use every single die they have in a single turn. Which, in terms of nova damage is scary... but some manuevers aren't damage. So, I wanted to free them up, let them spend them and know that they are going to at least have a few every fight.

As for the new part of the ability... it felt right. There are a few times that people want to chain these maneuvers together, and I wanted to give them a boost for spending them like that. This was back when this was a 15th level ability though, so I may want to push that part back up


15th level: Still no changes to the superiority system, but I did add a new ability, Battlefield Tactics

Beginning at 15th level your command of the battlefield is unmathced.

When initiative is rolled you can spend your reaction to shout a signal to your allies. Each Ally within 60 ft of you can use their reaction to move their full speed, without provoking opportunity attacks or take the Dodge action. You can use this ability once per short rest

So, I was leaning into this master of tactical combat aspect again, and I was thinking of ambushes. This ability is either a reposition or a hunkering down on the first round of combat. This let's the battle master look at the field and say "crap, we are in a bad spot" and react and change the battlefield. Perhaps instead of an ambush with lots of advantage, the enemy gets a free round of attacks, but all at normal. Or, the wizard they were jumping was able to scurry back and the paladin took his place.

I feel like this is situationally very powerful, but if you are ambushing an enemy... it might not be worth it. Or it could be a free charge into the fray. Though, I've had a lot of players who have declared that they are dodging before doing something like opening a door or sticking their head around the corner, so that aspect is really only best used when you are the ambushed, not the other way around

18th level: Kept the die improvement, but added something that felt like a real capstone. Lord of Battle.

By 18th level, your knowledge of the art of combat is unmatched. Enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you

Additionally, if you roll a 1 on a damage die for a weapon attack, you may re-roll. If you already have a re-roll due to Great Weapon Fighting Style, Savage Attacker, or a similar ability maximize the die instead.

So, the meatiest bit of this for me is the first ability. I was thinking things like Gun Kata. You know where the enemy will be striking, and how to stand to give them the least amount of chance to hit you. You don't grant advantage for being restrained, blinded, ect ect ect. This is incredibly powerful, but entirely passive.

The second ability is a bit of minor thing. Roll a 1 on damage, re-roll it. Fairly minor all things considered. The other part of it comes from some personal philosophy. I don't like stacking abilities that cancel out, and I had a guy once who had Great Weapon Style, Savage Attacker and a magical sword that let him re-roll. There were times he would roll, re-roll, re-re-roll... it got a bit tedious. And, at the end of the day, it just took too much time. I might just make this a general house rule, but I wanted to experiment with it here.


And that is it, and while I'd like some discussion on the Battlemaster, I figured why the heck not show the opposite side of the coin at the same time. The Champion is also much maligned, and I think that isn't only because it is simple, but because the abilities end up not happening on the regular, so I did this instead.

3rd Level: Improved Critical, Get a Second Second Wind use every short rest.

7th: Improved Remarkable Athlete

Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make.

In addition, whenever you jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.

The idea that you can't be "remarkable" in athletics if you already had proficiency was just... weird. This isn't as good as Expertise in a single skill, but it also applies to EVERY check that uses those stats. Drinking alcohol, breaking doors, stealth, ect. This is truly remarkable now.

And, I gave you more lift when you jump. They can compete with the Rogue Thief now.

10th Level: No change, just get a second Fighting Style. I would have altered this, except Tasha's added a lot of good Styles, so you no longer have to worry about incompatible styles.

15th: Superior critical as normal, then Superior Second Wind. Superior Second wind simply maximizes the healing from the Die.

This is actually a very minor boost in raw healing. By this point you are getting 1d10+15. That is an average of 20, it is now a guaranteed 25. 5 points of healing. But, it also prevents a low roll, and by being predictable, it gives the champion a better sense of when to use it,

18th: Survivor with a kicker

At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle.

At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

Additionally, when you use your Second Wind feature, you have advantage on Strength, Constitution and Dexterity Saving Throws until the end of your next turn.

I think Survivor is incredibly awesome. A potential 10 region is incredibly powerful, sure it isn't going to get you above half, but I'm okay with that.

But, I wanted to also give some added utility to Second Wind here. If you are truly getting beat down where you need the regen, and second wind, then you are also going to get advantage on some saving throws, make you even more resilient for a turn.


And that is that. Looking forward to some interesting discussion.
 

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NotAYakk

Legend
Battlemaster:
For 7, +1 AC conditional is fiddly.

Second, you need more non-combat utility abilities in the BM, not less.

For 10, how about the first use of a superiority die on your turn is free?

The "shout" feature, look at 4e, it has a pile of Warlord abilities that you could let PCs poach.

Lord of Battle:
That is something I'd give a rogue instead of a BM.

I don't like the stacking rules you supplied. I'd suggest doing something else.

One mechanic I like is:
At the start of your turn, roll 1d20. Until the start of your next turn, you may use that d20 to replace one attack made by you or against you.


---

Champion

Now the champions problem at level 3 is that the BM scales ridiculously better than it.

By later on, the crit range and tap count etc catches the champion up. But at level 3, a 19-20 crit range isn't much.

A second second wind doesn't help enough either.

I have tried a few things.

Also, 2 second winds isn't as fun as 1 impactful one. So...

Improved Second Wind
When you take the second wind action, you regain one additional d10 HP for every 2 fighter levels. In addition, you can make one weapon attack.

Starting at 7th level, when you take your second wind, you also gain the benefits of the dodge action.

Starting at 10th level, when your HP are reduced to 0, you can expend a reaction to take your second wind. Your HP are instead reduced to the amount the second wind heals.

That makes the "tough as nails" scale nicely.

Remarkable Athlete
I might suggest:
* When you make a strength, dexterity or constitution check or saving throw and you do not add your proficiency bonus, you can add 1/2 of your proficiency bonus (round up). If you already add your proficiency bonus, add +1 on top of it.

This gives a benefit on things you train in, as well as things you do not.
 

Stalker0

Legend
So I think you have some great ideas, and then just push it a little bit too far. Like you said, the Battle Master is already pretty solid, he doesn't need a lot. So I will keep the ideas of your I think are great, and then stop it there.

Master of a Thousand Plans: You can no longer be surprised. If you already have this ability, gain +2 to initiative.

I have a player that has the ability currently and you would be amazed how often it comes up. Its a very good ability, no more is needed. I just added a little something so that it stacks if you have the ability twice.

Improved Relentless: When you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 2 superiority die.

This is already really good, it gives you more of what you love, and much earlier than you got it before. That's great...and its enough.

Battlefield Tactics: That one is cool, I think its good as is.

Lord of Battle: Enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you

This is already incredibly powerful and very useful. Players will like this one a lot. Combined with the increased manuever die, your solid. Honestly I think this one is more champion appropriate, so you could try giving this over to the champion and keep the reroll thing.


Remarkable Athlete

I had to reread this a few times to get the difference, but once I realize it, so yeah half expertise on all strength, dex, and con ability checks...that's seems pretty good. the houserule I use btw is you add the bonus to death saving throws as well.

Superior Second Wind: A nice little boost. I personally think you can put in the advantage power you have in survivor here. I think survivor is just awesome as it is, whereas this ability still has some room for more buff.
 

As long as multiclassing for the dip isn't an option, granting Champion fighters the full improved critical range at level 3 isn't generally a problem.

That's a fair point.

I tend to not prevent people from Multi-classing, but I don't encourage it either or consider it because I'm a mono-class type of guy
 

Battlemaster:
For 7, +1 AC conditional is fiddly.

True. Couldn't think of anything better. Got a decent ribbon that has some mechanical impact and fits the theme of the ability?

Second, you need more non-combat utility abilities in the BM, not less.

I had a really hard time thinking of any. Giving them skills makes them a lot like the Samurai, Cavalier, Arcane Archer and Banneret (I've modded some of those too) and they already get a tool.

I thought about giving them bonuses to certain skills... but that is getting covered by new manuevers, and I didn't want to invalidate them.

If you have some ideas, I'd be open to them, but I'm just not sure what kind of non-combat stuff I can give them that doesn't move them closer to other classes.

For 10, how about the first use of a superiority die on your turn is free?

Hmm, not a bad idea. But I'd have to make it the first you use in battle if free. Otherwise they can get practically infinite superiority, which is too powerful for 10th level. And I think goes against making it a resource in the first place.

The "shout" feature, look at 4e, it has a pile of Warlord abilities that you could let PCs poach.

I did mean to look those over, but I wasn't able to access my 4e books when I was writing this. Was there something particular not good about this ability as written? Or just "if you want to poach more"?

Lord of Battle:
That is something I'd give a rogue instead of a BM.

It does feel roguish, but it also feels like being... well a Master of Battle. Able to fight in complete darkness, while blind, ect ect ect without the enemy being able to find an easy opening.

I don't like the stacking rules you supplied. I'd suggest doing something else.

One mechanic I like is:
At the start of your turn, roll 1d20. Until the start of your next turn, you may use that d20 to replace one attack made by you or against you.

That could be a neat alternative. Is there a reason you don't like the stacking rule or is it just an aesthetic thing?

Champion

Now the champions problem at level 3 is that the BM scales ridiculously better than it.

By later on, the crit range and tap count etc catches the champion up. But at level 3, a 19-20 crit range isn't much.

A second second wind doesn't help enough either.

I have tried a few things.

Also, 2 second winds isn't as fun as 1 impactful one. So...

Improved Second Wind
When you take the second wind action, you regain one additional d10 HP for every 2 fighter levels. In addition, you can make one weapon attack.

Starting at 7th level, when you take your second wind, you also gain the benefits of the dodge action.

Starting at 10th level, when your HP are reduced to 0, you can expend a reaction to take your second wind. Your HP are instead reduced to the amount the second wind heals.

That makes the "tough as nails" scale nicely.

Woof, that is some power there. I think that scaling is WAY too much. A tenth level fighter is getting 5d10+10 hp, that is a 6th level spell equivalent. And they'd get an attack, and a dodge?

Way too much. Also, it goes against the simplicity of design I was trying to keep. I do agree a second second wind isn't as impactful, but it does mean the Champion can go for longer than other fighters.


I do love that idea of them getting the chance to use it as a reaction though. That is freaking cool, and really helps them.

Remarkable Athlete
I might suggest:
* When you make a strength, dexterity or constitution check or saving throw and you do not add your proficiency bonus, you can add 1/2 of your proficiency bonus (round up). If you already add your proficiency bonus, add +1 on top of it.

This gives a benefit on things you train in, as well as things you do not.

My version is better.

When you make a strength, dexterity or Con check, add half your proficiency. This is in addition to having proficiency, which I guess is unclear as written.

So, if you have Athletics and a +4 strength, this gives you a total of +9. +4 strength, +3 prof, +2 remarkable (3/2=1.5 round up to +2)

And by 17th level this is an additional +3 on top of prof and mod
 

So I think you have some great ideas, and then just push it a little bit too far. Like you said, the Battle Master is already pretty solid, he doesn't need a lot. So I will keep the ideas of your I think are great, and then stop it there.

Fair. Like I said, the more I looked at it, the more I felt like they start off incredibly good... but then never really expand beyond what they can do at level 3.

Master of a Thousand Plans: You can no longer be surprised. If you already have this ability, gain +2 to initiative.

I have a player that has the ability currently and you would be amazed how often it comes up. Its a very good ability, no more is needed. I just added a little something so that it stacks if you have the ability twice.

I thought about the initiative bump, worried that would make it too much like Alert. And I knew it was a really good ability, which is why I tried to just give a small ribbon-esque ability. I didn't think it was enough for a full level ability, but it doesn't need much to make it perfect.

Improved Relentless: When you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 2 superiority die.

This is already really good, it gives you more of what you love, and much earlier than you got it before. That's great...and its enough.

True. It was originally the 15th level ability, and I probably should have dropped the second half when I moved it down to 10th

Battlefield Tactics: That one is cool, I think its good as is.

Thank you

Lord of Battle: Enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you

This is already incredibly powerful and very useful. Players will like this one a lot. Combined with the increased manuever die, your solid. Honestly I think this one is more champion appropriate, so you could try giving this over to the champion and keep the reroll thing.

I love the Champions regen though.

And... I wasn't sure how powerful this would be. Enemies don't often attack at advantage. There are times when they do, and it is great for that, but I wasn't sure it was enough on its own. The increased manuever die is... kind of the weak part of this I think. It is a very minor boost over the d10's.

Remarkable Athlete

I had to reread this a few times to get the difference, but once I realize it, so yeah half expertise on all strength, dex, and con ability checks...that's seems pretty good. the houserule I use btw is you add the bonus to death saving throws as well.

Yeah, I might need to fiddle with the language a bit. Good news about primarily caring about running it at my own table though, easier to correct confusion.

Death saves might not be a bad addition.

Superior Second Wind: A nice little boost. I personally think you can put in the advantage power you have in survivor here. I think survivor is just awesome as it is, whereas this ability still has some room for more buff.

Yeah, that's a good point. Will probably do that
 

NotAYakk

Legend
The base rules say very clearly you can only add proficiency once to a roll (be it doubled, normal or halved).

Stacking is a metaconcept, not a 5e concept.

The second wind boost I described is a bit less than half your HP. It makes a champion about as durable as a raging barbarian. And a single spell's worth of hesling per short rest is not super strong.

Second Wind really becomes a joke past low levels, baseline.

Hooking it up with 1 extra attack/short rest at low levels that is anti-alpha-strike (as it wastes the healing) is the intention. This is a large offensive damage boost. Keeping the healing scaling keeps it anti-alpha-strike; otherwise you just ignore the 15 HP at level 10.

You can cut the dodge; I added it for feel really. Foes should avoid attacking dodging PCs, so the calculus of combat doesn't change that much unless the player gets clever. The feel is supposed to be "got beat down, and now coming back in to beat you down" like a true champion.

Maybe a 2 attacks on SW instead of dodge, to keep the offense important.

I dislike the core fighter's SW, because it really becomes a junk ability by T2/3; something to do with your bonus action when you got shit all else. Making it beefy, instead of giving more uses, is good.

At L10, your version heals for 2d10+20 or 31. Mine heals for 6d10+10 or 43, only 33%ish more. The difference is yours produces HP slowly, while mine generates a dramatic swing.

At 15 yours is 50 per SR; mine is 9d10+15 or 64.5. Only 14.5 more HP, but all at once.

A 16 con L15 fighter has (6+3)*15+4 = 139 HP. 64.5 is a bit less than half, 25 is like a sixth.

At 2, a 14 con fighter has 20 HP, and SW generates 7.5, about 40%.

The extra attack feels good, and competes with the 20-odd SR damage BM get at 3. It isn't as good. So the extra d10 healing makes you tougher.

Anyhow, that is my logic.

---

Logistics would be an interesting BM non-combat ability. Training or command would also be neat; share your proficiency bonus with NPCs?

4e Warlords had either +2 initiative aura, +2 to insight perception aura, or could shift sn ally half their speed when they rolled initiative. Ah, I misremembered, the real variety was hooked to action points.
 

That's a fair point.

I tend to not prevent people from Multi-classing, but I don't encourage it either or consider it because I'm a mono-class type of guy
It would just be a bit too tempting as a 3-level dip for Rogues, Barbarians, and Paladins.
I had a really hard time thinking of any. Giving them skills makes them a lot like the Samurai, Cavalier, Arcane Archer and Banneret (I've modded some of those too) and they already get a tool.

I thought about giving them bonuses to certain skills... but that is getting covered by new manuevers, and I didn't want to invalidate them.

If you have some ideas, I'd be open to them, but I'm just not sure what kind of non-combat stuff I can give them that doesn't move them closer to other classes.
How about a successful Know your Enemy gives a free temporary superiority die that can be used on Insight or Charisma checks involving that person?

Its hard to think of non-combat capabilities for Fighters, but frankly they perform just fine when hitting things in combat. It is the situations where they can't hit stuff that the class lacks support.
 

The base rules say very clearly you can only add proficiency once to a roll (be it doubled, normal or halved).

I see that point, but there are about a dozen ways to get around that, some of them with simple language some of them with more complex language.

I figured this was just the simplest way to express the mechanic, and I have a preference to make the mechanics simpler to grok for players. So, I could have "you can add half your proficiency to non-proficient dex, str, and con checks and your proficiency is 1.5 times its normal value for for proficient dex, str, and con checks" and get the same effect, I just find this way of doing it is simpler to convey, and if anyone tries to use my homebrew ease of use language to do something they aren't supposed to, then I can just tell them no.

But, I don't think most people ever consider Proficiency being added multiple times, so it likely isn't even a rule they are aware of.

Stacking is a metaconcept, not a 5e concept.

That is a fair point, but rules themselves are fairly meta-conceptual anyways, and I feel like that isn't a good reason not to include the rule.

I mean, it is good feedback, but it feels a bit like your objection is more aesthetic than mechanical, because there are things that "stack" in 5e, and some specific rules to prevent some specific types of stacking.

The second wind boost I described is a bit less than half your HP. It makes a champion about as durable as a raging barbarian. And a single spell's worth of healing per short rest is not super strong.

Second Wind really becomes a joke past low levels, baseline.

I can get behind the idea that Second Wind could use a boost at higher levels, that isn't something I feel is a big disagreement. However, as I said, you are doing the equivalent of a 6th or 7th level spells worth of healing twice (because I gave two uses) per short rest.

Even Warlocks don't generallu get 6th level spells once per short rest, so this is massively out of line in terms of expected power.

Could second wind use a boost? Solid thought. But the boost you recommended is beyond what I think this ability should do, and it sounds like this is more an issue with Second Wind in general, which is where I would look to change it.

Hooking it up with 1 extra attack/short rest at low levels that is anti-alpha-strike (as it wastes the healing) is the intention. This is a large offensive damage boost. Keeping the healing scaling keeps it anti-alpha-strike; otherwise you just ignore the 15 HP at level 10.

I'm not quite following. There is no wasted healing here unless you are using it solely for the attack. And, still, if this heal is good enough for a bonus action anyways, there is zero reason to also make an attack. That is a bridge too far I think.

You can cut the dodge; I added it for feel really. Foes should avoid attacking dodging PCs, so the calculus of combat doesn't change that much unless the player gets clever. The feel is supposed to be "got beat down, and now coming back in to beat you down" like a true champion.

Maybe a 2 attacks on SW instead of dodge, to keep the offense important.

Two attacks is a definite no from me. That is WAY too good.

I get the feel you are going for. The Second Wind being a bonus action is how that comes across for me. Other classes usually have actions to heal them. And, I tend to find it a lot more complicated on whether or not an enemy ignores a dodging character.

But still, you proposed change at 11th level does the following.

As a bonus action the Fighter gets to heal 5d10+11, and make an attack, and Dodge.
Then as an action they can make three more attacks, making a total of 4d8+16

That is for a longsword fighter, an potential average of 39 hp healed, 34 damage dealt and a dodge for essentially +5 AC. That is way more than feels reasonable based off of needing to heal.

I dislike the core fighter's SW, because it really becomes a junk ability by T2/3; something to do with your bonus action when you got shit all else. Making it beefy, instead of giving more uses, is good.

At L10, your version heals for 2d10+20 or 31. Mine heals for 6d10+10 or 43, only 33%ish more. The difference is yours produces HP slowly, while mine generates a dramatic swing.

At 15 yours is 50 per SR; mine is 9d10+15 or 64.5. Only 14.5 more HP, but all at once.

A 16 con L15 fighter has (6+3)*15+4 = 139 HP. 64.5 is a bit less than half, 25 is like a sixth.

At 2, a 14 con fighter has 20 HP, and SW generates 7.5, about 40%.

The extra attack feels good, and competes with the 20-odd SR damage BM get at 3. It isn't as good. So the extra d10 healing makes you tougher.

Anyhow, that is my logic.

I can fully get behind the core SW falling off by T3. I can see that argument. But that feels like something to fix for all fighters, and I don't think it fits well as a change to the Champion alone.

Also, your rule didn't say anything about being in place of getting another use of second wind. So, as my homebrew is currently written, your rule would allow for 86 (12d10+20) and 129 (18d10+30) at 10th and 15th. If you were thinking that this would replace the 3rd and 15th then that is a bit different. But that didn't seem to be your intent

Logistics would be an interesting BM non-combat ability. Training or command would also be neat; share your proficiency bonus with NPCs?

The training and command sounds great for a bonus in the Strongholds and Followers rules. I'm not sure I'd want it in the class directly though, since it seems more like an "in addition to" type of thing. I don't like giving abilities that only apply if you are playing with a specific rule set

Logistics sounds interesting, but how would you want to implement it?

4e Warlords had either +2 initiative aura, +2 to insight perception aura, or could shift sn ally half their speed when they rolled initiative. Ah, I misremembered, the real variety was hooked to action points.

Ah, okay. The other two don't sound as good to me. The initiative is a paladin thing and I think my new banneret too. Insight and perception doesn't feel quite right.

And I can't really do a lot with the AP rules directly. Thanks for looking into those for me though.
 

It would just be a bit too tempting as a 3-level dip for Rogues, Barbarians, and Paladins.

Maybe. But I'm not offering the full critical range at level 3 anyways, so it isn't really a point I'm concerned about.

How about a successful Know your Enemy gives a free temporary superiority die that can be used on Insight or Charisma checks involving that person?

Its hard to think of non-combat capabilities for Fighters, but frankly they perform just fine when hitting things in combat. It is the situations where they can't hit stuff that the class lacks support.

A bit of the challenge with that is that I am including Studious Eye (bonus to insight and investiagation) and Silver Tongue (Persuasion and Deception) in the maneuvers. So, what a free die would translate to is "spend 1 minute observing someone, use either of these maneuvers for free without having to take them"

Which, being a base feature, would mean that those two maneuvers would get seen as weak, because you can do something basically the same for free as long as you have time, so why waste time getting them?

It is a great idea, and before those maneuvers were added to the game, I might have jumped on an ability like this, but with them in my option pool already, it feels like I'd be better off just giving them these maneuvers for free.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Oh no, I mean to replace having two uses.

Your second wind boost gives two uses of an ability that is weak by T2 and better than nothing in T3. I think that is a baf plan; among other things, it makes twf and other bonus action combat styles suck for low level champions. Then becomes useless if your champion finds a use for their bonus actions.

...

Do a damage per encounter or day comparison of a champion 3/5 or a BM 3/5 doing naive damage picks. The champions damage output is abysmal. And the BM can swap naive damage for fancier stuff.

(Naive damage is precision on miss by up to 3, use dice as damage on crits, and riposte whenever it happens. Repeat until out of BM dice.)

Adding an attack to SW is an attempt to make Champion 3 approach BM 3 damage per encounter or day.

Without it or something like it, Champion damage trails behind naive BM damage until T3ish, where wider crit range and more swings close the gap.

I have played with copying gloomstalker, adding an action surge, giving them a bonus action attack on turn 1 but beefing up second wind to me feels better.

You get that comeback combo.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
I have been a lot more modest in my own additions to the Battle Master and Champion.

But first, I enhance Second Wind by increasing the number of uses per short rest for all Fighters.
Second Wind
In addition to its normal benefit, add:
You can use this feature twice between rests starting at 7th level and three times between rests starting at 13th level.

For the Battle Master I made the following changes:
Know Your Enemy
In addition to other benefits, when an opponent within 30’ of you targets you with all of its attacks during its turn, on your next turn you may use a Battle Master maneuver against that opponent without expending a superiority die. Once you use this feature you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

At 7th level this lets the Battle Master do a little more of what he wants to do anyway, and it is at the expense of being the target of all of the opponents attacks, so you have to survive that first before you can use it. Then I limited it to once per short rest so it doesn't overshadow having to spend his dice.

Relentless
Starting at 15th level, when you roll initiative you regain 1 expended superiority die.

Instead of having to run out of dice before using this ability, this allows the Battle Master to slowly refresh his pool during easy fights or, more likely, at least slow the attrition of dice before he runs out. For example, if you only use two dice in your first battle, you recover one and go back up to 5 dice at the start of you next battle. Then if you use 3 dice in that battle you would be down to two, but would recover one and be back up to 3 in the battle after that. Finally, of course, if you are completely out you will always have at least one.

Battlefield Tactics
Beginning at 18th level your command of the battlefield is unmatched. When initiative is rolled and you are not surprised, you can shout a signal to your allies. Each ally within 60 ft of you that is not surprised and can see or hear you can move half their speed, without provoking opportunity attacks, or take the Dodge action. You can use this ability once per short rest.

Okay, obviously I stole this from you, but I changed this to be the 18th level capstone, doesn't require a reaction and has the limitation that you and your allies can't be surprised and limited the movement to a half move. I still think this is an awesome capstone ability as it allows the Battle Master to enhance the starting position of his party before anyone else can take an action. That is super powerful in my opinion.

Here is what I did for the Champion:
Expertise
At 3rd level, choose two skills you are proficient in. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

Just like you I had the idea of just letting the Remarkable Athlete ability stack on top of skills the Champion was already proficient with, but that just seemed a little confusing. So then I thought of just giving Expertise to the Athletics skill in addition to the other benefits. Then I thought that was a little too restrictive if someone wanted to play a Dex Fighter or something like that. Eventually I decided to just give the Champion flat Expertise at 3rd level to make up for being a little weak at the beginning and if the player wanted they could put the Expertise in Athletics and be really awesome at it (for tripping, shoving, grappling, etc.), but they weren't locked into that choice.

Remarkable Athlete
In addition to the other benefits, your speed increases by 5 feet and whenever you finish a short rest, your exhaustion level, if any, is decreased by 1.

Here I just added a slight speed boost and then allowed them to reduce their exhaustion during a short rest. Then Tasha's came out and they gave these abilities to the Ranger. But despite the overlap I still think it is fitting for an athletic fighter.

Remarkable Resistance
Starting at 15th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any saving throw check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus.

In addition to another increase in their crit range, I added this feature to really make the Champion a tough opponent to knock down. And it kinda fits thematically with the Remarkable Athlete and Survivor abilities while not overshadowing the Monk (which gets full proficiency to all saves at level 14).

Survivor
In addition to the other benefits, when you use Second Wind you double the amount of hit points that you regain.

Getting 7 to 10 hit points back per round is cool, but you have to already be below half your total health, and at 18th level 10 hit points isn't going to make a lot of difference. Combined with the increased uses I gave to all fighters, this means a Champion with 18 Con can get back 9 hit points at the start of his turn, then use his bonus action to get back another 1d10+18x2 hit points for about 56 points of healing in one round, and he can do that up to 3 times. Which should help keep him up.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
Well, for that, let me go ahead and put up a table for the original Battlemaster

The main tweak I would suggest is to drop the extra feats and replace them with extra reactions or bonus actions. And bring Indomitable forward so that people actually use it.

Some of the clumsy wording is there to prevent multi-classing cheese.

Level Proficiency Bonus Bonus Features
1st +2 Fighting Style, Defensive Bonus
2nd +2 Action Surge (1 use), Second Wind
3rd +2 Martial Archetype
4th +2 Ability Score Improvement, Indomitable (1 use)
5th +3 Extra Attack
6th +3 Combat Reflexes (1)
7th +3 Martial Archetype feature
8th +3 Ability Score Improvement
9th +4 Indomitable (2 uses)
10th +4 Martial Archetype feature
11th +4 Extra Attack (2)
12th +4 Ability Score Improvement, Instinct
13th +5 Action Surge (two uses)
14th +5 Combat Reflexes (2)
15th +5 Martial Archetype feature
16th +5 Ability Score Improvement
17th +6 Indomitable (3 uses)
18th +6 Martial Archetype feature
19th +6 Ability Score Improvement
20th +6 Extra Attack (3)

Defensive Bonus: Your base Armour Class can become 10 + Armour + Defensive Bonus. Your Defensive Bonus is the lower of your Proficiency Bonus or your levels in the Fighter class and is limited by armour as your Dex bonus is (e.g. max of +2 with Medium Armour). You may add to your AC with a shield, Fighting Styles, magic, and the like. Your Defensive Bonus may not be used with any type of Unarmoured Defence but may be used when you are out of armour.

Action Surge: starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action. Your Action Surge lasts for a number of consecutive rounds equal to the lower of your Proficiency Bonus or your levels in the Fighter class. Your Action Surge ends early if you are knocked unconscious. You can also end your Action Surge on your turn as a Bonus Action. You recover all uses after a Short or Long Rest.

Indomitable: Beginning at 4th level you may pass a saving throw you fail (q.v. Legendary Resistance). In addition, if the save is versus a spell which does not ordinarily allow a saving throw the spell has no effect if it does not do damage or does half damage if it does damage. You may use Indomitable once per Short Rest. At 9th level you may use Indomitable twice per Short Rest. At 17th level you may use Indomitable three times per Short Rest. You recover all uses after a Short or Long Rest.

Combat Reflexes: at 6th level you gain an additional Reaction or Bonus Action. At 14th level each round you now have an additional Reaction and Bonus Action. You may change your choice after a Long Rest. The Reaction and Bonus Action must still be activated as per normal.

Instinct: at 12th level your base passive Wisdom (Perception) scores become the better of 10 + Proficiency Bonus or 10 + Wisdom modifier and you may use your Proficiency Bonus instead of your Wisdom modifier when making active Wisdom (Perception) rolls.
 

Oh no, I mean to replace having two uses.

Your second wind boost gives two uses of an ability that is weak by T2 and better than nothing in T3. I think that is a baf plan; among other things, it makes twf and other bonus action combat styles suck for low level champions. Then becomes useless if your champion finds a use for their bonus actions.

Ah, okay.

I still think your concerns are better dealt with as a change to the fighter though. Making the Champion the only one who gets value from Second Wind (in your opinion, I'm a little less convinced, I think there is still some good scaling for what it is) by making them the only one with your knew scaling leaves every other archetype behind.

I will start ruminating on something for if I want to buff Second for 3rd tier play. I don't want to go as extreme as you did though.

Do a damage per encounter or day comparison of a champion 3/5 or a BM 3/5 doing naive damage picks. The champions damage output is abysmal. And the BM can swap naive damage for fancier stuff.

(Naive damage is precision on miss by up to 3, use dice as damage on crits, and riposte whenever it happens. Repeat until out of BM dice.)

Adding an attack to SW is an attempt to make Champion 3 approach BM 3 damage per encounter or day.

Without it or something like it, Champion damage trails behind naive BM damage until T3ish, where wider crit range and more swings close the gap.

I have played with copying gloomstalker, adding an action surge, giving them a bonus action attack on turn 1 but beefing up second wind to me feels better.

You get that comeback combo.

I get that the Battlemaster is likely doing more damage than the Champion, but there are a few mitigating circumstances now. Mainly, there are a lot of manuevers that don't deal damage. also, does the Champion still stack up to the Cavalier and the Samurai?

There are more fighter options right now. Champion's could use a buff perhaps, I'm not sure what per se, but I don't want to tie it to Second Wind right now.
 

I have been a lot more modest in my own additions to the Battle Master and Champion.

But first, I enhance Second Wind by increasing the number of uses per short rest for all Fighters.
Second Wind
In addition to its normal benefit, add:
You can use this feature twice between rests starting at 7th level and three times between rests starting at 13th level.

There does seem to be this consensus about Second Wind for all fighters needing a change.

Maybe what I'll do is inverse your change and do NotAYak's change with far smaller scaling. Give every fighter 2d10 at 7th and 3d10 at 13th. Champion can still get two uses. There is nothing wrong with giving multiple uses and then the champion doubling the dice, I just feel like... Fighters can get a lot of pools of resources, and I want to limit how many pools they have to track.

For the Battle Master I made the following changes:
Know Your Enemy
In addition to other benefits, when an opponent within 30’ of you targets you with all of its attacks during its turn, on your next turn you may use a Battle Master maneuver against that opponent without expending a superiority die. Once you use this feature you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

At 7th level this lets the Battle Master do a little more of what he wants to do anyway, and it is at the expense of being the target of all of the opponents attacks, so you have to survive that first before you can use it. Then I limited it to once per short rest so it doesn't overshadow having to spend his dice.

That is a neat idea

Relentless
Starting at 15th level, when you roll initiative you regain 1 expended superiority die.

Instead of having to run out of dice before using this ability, this allows the Battle Master to slowly refresh his pool during easy fights or, more likely, at least slow the attrition of dice before he runs out. For example, if you only use two dice in your first battle, you recover one and go back up to 5 dice at the start of you next battle. Then if you use 3 dice in that battle you would be down to two, but would recover one and be back up to 3 in the battle after that. Finally, of course, if you are completely out you will always have at least one.

Oh, that is a cool way of changing that up. I might steal that one.

Battlefield Tactics
Beginning at 18th level your command of the battlefield is unmatched. When initiative is rolled and you are not surprised, you can shout a signal to your allies. Each ally within 60 ft of you that is not surprised and can see or hear you can move half their speed, without provoking opportunity attacks, or take the Dodge action. You can use this ability once per short rest.

Okay, obviously I stole this from you, but I changed this to be the 18th level capstone, doesn't require a reaction and has the limitation that you and your allies can't be surprised and limited the movement to a half move. I still think this is an awesome capstone ability as it allows the Battle Master to enhance the starting position of his party before anyone else can take an action. That is super powerful in my opinion.

I agree it is very powerful.

Part of the reason I didn't make it a capstone is I'm not sure how often high level parties will be in a situation where they are being ambushed and need repositioned.

Also, by requiring everyone to not be surprised (and yes, I know that per RAW surprised creatures can't take reactions) you are actually unable to use this in those ambush situations where it is most powerful. I get the intent, and I agree it is strong, I'm just thinking it is situationally powerful. And I want it to be used earlier, when it is more likely to matter, rather than later.

Here is what I did for the Champion:
Expertise
At 3rd level, choose two skills you are proficient in. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

Just like you I had the idea of just letting the Remarkable Athlete ability stack on top of skills the Champion was already proficient with, but that just seemed a little confusing. So then I thought of just giving Expertise to the Athletics skill in addition to the other benefits. Then I thought that was a little too restrictive if someone wanted to play a Dex Fighter or something like that. Eventually I decided to just give the Champion flat Expertise at 3rd level to make up for being a little weak at the beginning and if the player wanted they could put the Expertise in Athletics and be really awesome at it (for tripping, shoving, grappling, etc.), but they weren't locked into that choice.

I legit thought of the same thing. Decided not to do it, to keep Expertise the realm of the Rogue and Bard.

Remarkable Athlete
In addition to the other benefits, your speed increases by 5 feet and whenever you finish a short rest, your exhaustion level, if any, is decreased by 1.

Here I just added a slight speed boost and then allowed them to reduce their exhaustion during a short rest. Then Tasha's came out and they gave these abilities to the Ranger. But despite the overlap I still think it is fitting for an athletic fighter.

Ooh, you are right. That is a good idea. Hmmm...

Remarkable Resistance
Starting at 15th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any saving throw check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus.

In addition to another increase in their crit range, I added this feature to really make the Champion a tough opponent to knock down. And it kinda fits thematically with the Remarkable Athlete and Survivor abilities while not overshadowing the Monk (which gets full proficiency to all saves at level 14).

Another really good idea. I like that a lot.

Survivor
In addition to the other benefits, when you use Second Wind you double the amount of hit points that you regain.

Getting 7 to 10 hit points back per round is cool, but you have to already be below half your total health, and at 18th level 10 hit points isn't going to make a lot of difference. Combined with the increased uses I gave to all fighters, this means a Champion with 18 Con can get back 9 hit points at the start of his turn, then use his bonus action to get back another 1d10+18x2 hit points for about 56 points of healing in one round, and he can do that up to 3 times. Which should help keep him up.

Yeah, I think I'm coming around to the same sort of idea, just implementing it earlier and differently.
 

The main tweak I would suggest is to drop the extra feats and replace them with extra reactions or bonus actions. And bring Indomitable forward so that people actually use it.

Some of the clumsy wording is there to prevent multi-classing cheese.

Level Proficiency Bonus Bonus Features
1st +2 Fighting Style, Defensive Bonus
2nd +2 Action Surge (1 use), Second Wind
3rd +2 Martial Archetype
4th +2 Ability Score Improvement, Indomitable (1 use)
5th +3 Extra Attack
6th +3 Combat Reflexes (1)
7th +3 Martial Archetype feature
8th +3 Ability Score Improvement
9th +4 Indomitable (2 uses)
10th +4 Martial Archetype feature
11th +4 Extra Attack (2)
12th +4 Ability Score Improvement, Instinct
13th +5 Action Surge (two uses)
14th +5 Combat Reflexes (2)
15th +5 Martial Archetype feature
16th +5 Ability Score Improvement
17th +6 Indomitable (3 uses)
18th +6 Martial Archetype feature
19th +6 Ability Score Improvement
20th +6 Extra Attack (3)

Okay, this seems to be changes to the Fighter as a whole. Which I have done some minor tweaks here and there, but do go outside the scope of what I'm working with currently.

Defensive Bonus: Your base Armour Class can become 10 + Armour + Defensive Bonus. Your Defensive Bonus is the lower of your Proficiency Bonus or your levels in the Fighter class and is limited by armour as your Dex bonus is (e.g. max of +2 with Medium Armour). You may add to your AC with a shield, Fighting Styles, magic, and the like. Your Defensive Bonus may not be used with any type of Unarmoured Defence but may be used when you are out of armour.

I don't quite like this. In fact... yeah this isn't a good ability for the types of things I would want to encourage.

Since it is limited by your Armor, it gives no bonus to someone in heavy armor. Meaning that a Fighter with Plate and Shield still has an AC of 20. However, a fighter in studded leather with a shield has 12+2+5 dex + 6 = 25 AC. You have essentially made Heavy Armor worthless, and therefore every fighter will be a dex fighter.

Action Surge: starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action. Your Action Surge lasts for a number of consecutive rounds equal to the lower of your Proficiency Bonus or your levels in the Fighter class. Your Action Surge ends early if you are knocked unconscious. You can also end your Action Surge on your turn as a Bonus Action. You recover all uses after a Short or Long Rest.

Woah... that is crazy powerful. Action Surge is one of the most powerful abilities in the game as is, and getting it for multiple turns in a row is far too much. A single Action surge can devastate a boss monster, getting 6? It is truly epic in a way I'd save for a Divine Boon for a 21+ level game.

Indomitable: Beginning at 4th level you may pass a saving throw you fail (q.v. Legendary Resistance). In addition, if the save is versus a spell which does not ordinarily allow a saving throw the spell has no effect if it does not do damage or does half damage if it does damage. You may use Indomitable once per Short Rest. At 9th level you may use Indomitable twice per Short Rest. At 17th level you may use Indomitable three times per Short Rest. You recover all uses after a Short or Long Rest.

I could see an argument for Indomitable being moved, and even maybe for it being an auto-pass, though that is really strong. But Spell evasion on top of that? At level 4? No. That is again way beyond the level of strength I want for the game.

Combat Reflexes: at 6th level you gain an additional Reaction or Bonus Action. At 14th level each round you now have an additional Reaction and Bonus Action. You may change your choice after a Long Rest. The Reaction and Bonus Action must still be activated as per normal.

This doesn't quite make sense to me as written. Also, multiple reactions was a thing I gave to monks, so I'd rather not give it to fighters. Personally.

Instinct: at 12th level your base passive Wisdom (Perception) scores become the better of 10 + Proficiency Bonus or 10 + Wisdom modifier and you may use your Proficiency Bonus instead of your Wisdom modifier when making active Wisdom (Perception) rolls.

This could be a fun ribbon... hmm, maybe this is what I need for my thousand plans. This is a really good idea for that actually. Thank you.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
So banerett already improves second wind. Making that even bigger is what I usually do.

Samurai's advantage is strong. Stronger than champion crit range when active (at cost); advantage gives as much of a crit boost, and an accuracy boost. In games with easy advantage, it is weaker. In games with more fights/day it is weaker. It doesn't match BM even in good situations at 3.

Existence of non damage meanuevers only makes BM stronger, not weaker. Subclasses with mainly only damage shouldn't fall behind damage from subclass with choice of damage or alternatives.

For cavalier, I would compare baselien BM to a Cav that gets its bonus attack every round.

BM 4 16 str 1d10 polearm gwf with pam+gwf on a 15 ac foe. Uses precision and -5/+10.

Over 3 rounds, 1 reaction, 3 bonus, 3 regular, for 4d10(22)+3d4(7.5)+91=120.5. Hits on 14 (35%), crits on a 20(5%).

Before meanuver dice, 43.7 damage.

If use die for missed by 1 to 6, that happens .3 per attack (2.1 total) for 68% of a hit each. Average hit is 17, 11.5 ish per die, for 24 damage.

0.35 crits at 9 damage per crit, for 3 ish damage.

No ripsote. So total of 70ish damage for 2 and a half dice burnt. (out of 4, short rest refresh)

Same cavalier, but gs, 18 str, gwm, and -5/+10 with advantage bonus attack.

6 taps. 8+ on normal for 11 (70% hit), 13+ on bonus for 23 (64% hit). 0.45 crits for +7 each. about 70 damage.

Uses 3/4 daily punishment uses used. Same damage.

Cavalier also imposed disadvantage on the attacks that ignored them.

In ideal circumstances, Cav just bearely matches simple BM.

I mean, a sentinal Cav that was ignored might exceed BM damage?

--

As most subclasses fall behind BM, and I like BM, I like adding second wind riders to every other subclass. And maybe a lesser one for BM, like "if you have 0 dice left, you get one back" at, mid high levels.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
For the Champion, I'd go with something like this:

lvl 3: Improved Critical
+1 Crit range, regain Action Surge when you crit 1/long rest.

lvl 7: Remarkable Athlete
  • Speed +5, jump distance +10
  • When you move a target, you can add +5 feet to the move, when you are moved against your will, you can reduce the movement by 5 ft.

lvl 14: Superior Critical
+ 2 crit range, regain Action Surge when you crit 2/long rest

lvl 17: Survivor
Same, but add that if you roll 15+ on a Death save, you regain 1 hp as if you rolled a 20.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
Woah... that is crazy powerful. Action Surge is one of the most powerful abilities in the game as is,

Yes, it's powerful, but the fighter is out-damaged by other fighting classes and you're assuming it's used for combat. Action Surge can be an escape power (running away) or as a second chance power (e.g. a second chance of grabbing someone who's fallen into a river), in diplomatic settings ("Forgive my slip of the tongue..."), and so on.
 

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