Honest Language?

[jaker2003]

Ooh, good points.
Of course, my idea just prevents speaking intended falsehoods, so I don't have to contend with those questions.

We await your answers, Nifft.

 

[Nifft]

Is it the case than an infernal oath is binding because infernal powers will force the oathmaker to keep its oath, or does the infernal language itself so bend the will and nature of the speaker that they cannot help but keep the oath?

At the time you speak an Infernal Oath, you effectively subject yourself to a geas-type of effect. There is also a strong hint that the DM will be as cruel and literal as possible in interpreting the Oath. You cannot help but keep the Oath. You also give Infernal powers implicit permission to "help" you (should you die, for example, you implicitly give Asmodeus permission to re-animate your corpse as an undead with the specific mission of fulfilling your Oath, as horribly and literally as possible).

I need to think of some legendary examples of this. Any help?

Must you understand what you are saying in order to be bound by the oath? Is ignorance considered an defense? If not, it seems to me that making a pass phrase through a magical door be an oath in infernal would make for a nasty bit of business.

Yes. You must understand the meaning of the words, though the implications may be beyond your immediate grasp.

The pass-phrase through the magic door is a great idea. Hell, even good Wizards might use it: "I shall leave this house when commanded."

Similarly, is it impossible to lie in Celestial because some celestial power stops ones tongue, or is it because nothing which is false can be properly phrased in the syntax of Celestial.

Mortals debate this kind of thing all the time in my setting. It has no measurable game effect.

Again, can one speak a falsehood unwittingly in Celestial? Can one write down a falsehood in Celestial? Suppose I write something down in Celestial, and then cut the paper into peices such that each word is on a different peice. Can I toss these peices in the air and then wait for them to come down in the erroneous order, or will they always come down in the order that is true? Can I use this as a method of divination if I don't know what the truth is?

One cannot lie in Celestial. One can be ignorant in any language. Perhaps Celestial gets around this particular logical thorn by not having a way to specify objective facts, but rather basing all utterances on faith: "I believe" rather than "it is".

The gods reserve the right to smite people who try to trick them into giving high-level spell effects without taking enough Cleric levels.

IMC, Celestial isn't a written language anyway, so it's not particularly important. (Why is it not written? Mostly because I want to stress that LE is about contracts, while Good is about Faith. But it side-steps this issue, too, albeit inadvertently. The fact that Devils can lie in Celestial would mean you can't actually trust any given Celestial textbook anyway, unless you knew the writer pretty well. Hmm. I'm keeping the non-written aspect.)

Thanks, -- N

 

[GreatLemur]

Are you refering to Wizard of Earthsea and related books? I remember reading some in grade school and hihg school, I believe that magic was done in the ancient language of dragons, names had power, you couldn't lie in the language, and some underlying hint that dragons reshape the world when they try to lie.

Pretty much. When I read it a little while ago, I was amazed how many concepts I recognized from later fiction and RPGs. It was clearly a pretty influential series.

 

[WhatGravitas]

At the time you speak an Infernal Oath, you effectively subject yourself to a geas-type of effect. There is also a strong hint that the DM will be as cruel and literal as possible in interpreting the Oath. You cannot help but keep the Oath. You also give Infernal powers implicit permission to "help" you (should you die, for example, you implicitly give Asmodeus permission to re-animate your corpse as an undead with the specific mission of fulfilling your Oath, as horribly and literally as possible).

Definitively interesting... it has a nice duality with Celestial, as if both were sides of the same coin:
Celestial forces the speaker to speak the truth, while Infernal makes whatever the speaker said the truth... that's *yoinked*

 

[Celebrim]

Thanks, Nifft. I'm intrigued by your ideas but I want to think them through fully before stealing any of them.

At the time you speak an Infernal Oath, you effectively subject yourself to a geas-type of effect. There is also a strong hint that the DM will be as cruel and literal as possible in interpreting the Oath. You cannot help but keep the Oath. You also give Infernal powers implicit permission to "help" you (should you die, for example, you implicitly give Asmodeus permission to re-animate your corpse as an undead with the specific mission of fulfilling your Oath, as horribly and literally as possible).

All that makes sense. No saving throw (DC 100 or something) or do you implicitly forfeit the saving throw?

I need to think of some legendary examples of this. Any help?

I'll think about it.

Yes. You must understand the meaning of the words, though the implications may be beyond your immediate grasp.

Ok. What if you are under duress? To what extent is duress an offense? Charmed? Tortured? Threats made against loved ones? In other words, is this essentially an infernal contract and it must be willingly entered into?

The pass-phrase through the magic door is a great idea. Hell, even good Wizards might use it: "I shall leave this house when commanded."

That works great for everyone but the owner.

Mortals debate this kind of thing all the time in my setting. It has no measurable game effect.

Well, it could conceivably have a measurable game effect. For example, if its a case of the Celestial stopping your tongue, then this effect is a product of force and unlike the case of the Infernal Oath it involves omniscience (not only do you have to hear all utterances of a language but you have read all thoughts of the speaker) and virtual omnipotence because the speakers isn't voluntarily forgoing a saving throw. It's suggestive however that Infernals can lie in Celestial, in that that suggests that if you get powerful enough or far enough out of the influence of whatever diety is involved here or whatever that you can no longer be forced. Now, if you are anything like me you'd never let a PC obtain that sort of power, but its interesting to know what is going on behind the curtain.

One cannot lie in Celestial. One can be ignorant in any language.

That is an important distinction.

Perhaps Celestial gets around this particular logical thorn by not having a way to specify objective facts, but rather basing all utterances on faith: "I believe" rather than "it is".

That doesn't help, because then you might still be lying if you said, "I believe that the moon is made of cheese." The fact that I believe or don't believe something is itself an objective fact. But if it is possible to be ignorant in Celestial and if Infernals can lie in it, we can be pretty positive that the problem stems not from the structure of Celestial but someone imposing thier will on the language.

The gods reserve the right to smite people who try to trick them into giving high-level spell effects without taking enough Cleric levels.

Well, there is always that, though I was wondering if this would be considered an approved method of divination in your universe, and if so, what would its limits be. But, if it is possible to be ignorant in Celestial, it wouldn't work anyway.

Thanks, -- N

No, thank you.

 

[Nifft]

Infernal

All that makes sense. No saving throw (DC 100 or something) or do you implicitly forfeit the saving throw?

Ok. What if you are under duress? To what extent is duress an offense? Charmed? Tortured? Threats made against loved ones? In other words, is this essentially an infernal contract and it must be willingly entered into?

No save. By speaking an Infernal Oath you voluntarily enter into a pact, and waive any save, SR, magical protection from Compulsions, or whatever else might defend you. The only real protection is keeping your mouth shut, or just not learning Infernal in the first place.

You may not be under the effect of a Compulsion or Charm -- your will must be your own, and not magically compelled, else the magically compelling entity is taking moral responsibility for the action, and you are free of obligation.

All other forms of coercion are legal! This is Infernal we're talking about, after all.

That works great for everyone but the owner.

The owner isn't stupid. He'd phrase it such that either only he could do the commanding, or he'd have another way into his own home.

Or perhaps the owner is a Sorcerer, and is stupid. Might be a fun bonus for intelligent players.



Celestial

That doesn't help, because then you might still be lying if you said, "I believe that the moon is made of cheese." The fact that I believe or don't believe something is itself an objective fact. But if it is possible to be ignorant in Celestial and if Infernals can lie in it, we can be pretty positive that the problem stems not from the structure of Celestial but someone imposing thier will on the language.

It's not an objective fact. It's a fact, but it can only be determined by you via subjective introspection. "I feel..." (or "I believe...") statements can be mutually conflicting while both being true.

Compare the mutual truth values of:
A: "I believe B is lying."
B: "I believe A speaks the truth."

... vs. the mutual truth values of:
A: "B lies."
B: "A speaks the truth."

By prohibiting objective statements, we can enforce truth without risking paradox.

Also, the faith angle is cool.

But just to be clear: if you did not, in fact, believe that the moon was made of cheese, you would not be able to say such a thing in Celestial.

Well, there is always that, though I was wondering if this would be considered an approved method of divination in your universe, and if so, what would its limits be. But, if it is possible to be ignorant in Celestial, it wouldn't work anyway.

Yeah... I'm not big on giving away too many free spells. Especially not powerful ones that cost XP to cast (like commune).

Cheers, -- N

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Perhaps a slightly different skew on the perspective?

Celestial
Knowingly speaking an untruth in Celestial is impossible. Omission is possible but requires a very high will save (I haven't decided how high I would make it using this scheme) it would have to be difficult while still being possible for those with a powerful will.

Infernal
Those speaking in Infernal must make a will save (one roughly equivalent to that for celestial) or twist the truth(without directly lying) in a fashion that benefits themselves at the cost of others.

-- Celestial is a blanket language of extraplanar Good but I'd rather see Good in the sense of the planar Alignment exemplar being highly adverse to lying.
-- Infernal, is the language of the 9 hells of Perdition, heavily Lawful as well as Evil. I've never seen the Devils as being outright liars, in fact I've always figured that their behavior was centered around misleading without ever uttering an actual falsehood. Like an embodiment of the most duplicitous possible evil lawyer stereotype. It's all in the fine print, they never flat out speak an untruth but through omission and twisting of the way in which a thing is said they lead you to believe that which is not true based on your interpretation of what they meant.

 

[Phlebas]

Pretty handy place to make diplomatic agreements and business deals, I'd say.

For this reason i have a stone in most cities main temple called an 'oath stone' - a mortal with his hand on it cannot speak falsehoods, and all compunctions (Charms etc) are ignored. Its too difficult to have a functioning society without one, though since you have to make donations to use it, still plenty of plot scope.

There are way's around it, but those aren't common knowledge

As for the properties of celestial and infernal - nice, I think i have a new house rule...

 

[Nifft]

Perhaps a slightly different skew on the perspective?

Celestial
Knowingly speaking an untruth in Celestial is impossible. Omission is possible but requires a very high will save (I haven't decided how high I would make it using this scheme) it would have to be difficult while still being possible for those with a powerful will.

You could model this as a large penalty to your Bluff check. Say, -30. Also, a penalty to Will saves to resist spells that detect lies, like discern lies and zone of truth.

Infernal
Those speaking in Infernal must make a will save (one roughly equivalent to that for celestial) or twist the truth(without directly lying) in a fashion that benefits themselves at the cost of others.

You could likewise grant a bonus to Bluff checks and to Will saves to resist lie-detecting spells... but why bother? No-one would use Infernal for anything in either case. Most Fiends have telepathy (which bypasses direct speech), and any mortal who tried to say anything in Infernal would not be believed, for good reason! It's like putting a sign on your forehead, "LIAR!"

I guess it could be cool, until your players found out about it. It's just too big of a meta-game tool IMHO.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Crashy75]

I see it is time once more to pimp my language rules.

BTW: the "no lying in Celestial" thing works really well in game.

Cheers, -- N

I am sooooo going to use this!!!!!!
EDIT:

I need to think of some legendary examples of this. Any help?

Well, you've already given 2 examples:
#1: A dead wife that raises as a rotting juju zombie to fulfill her 'wife duties'.
#2: A stupid sorcerer stuck in his own abode.

One thing I was wondering. One would have to be very careful teaching and learning infernal. "Ok, this is how you say, 'I'll be your slave for eternity.'"