Horizon Walker's Terrain Dominance as viable main strategy

[BBQLord]

Did some math on the skills. Your above build would have 90 + (20*Int) skill points (favored class monk for skills). A Rogue would have 180 + (20*Int) skill points (favored class rogue for skills)... that's almost double the amount of skill points unless I have an very high.
It seems to sacrifice too much of the 'skilled' aspect.

Given an Intelligence of 20 thats 190 vs. 280 skill points. I could have a higher Intelligence if I geared up but that would make him a lot more 'magicky' (and I don't want too much magical gear, or any if I can help it).

That said, your build seems to be an ungodly combatant, capable of a lot with very little.


What might also be relevant to note, given the thread title, is that Snake Style allows you to replace (touch) AC with a Sense Motive check against a single ranged or melee attack as an immediate action. This, of course, has insane synergy with Terrain Dominance and Favored Enemy (which offer bonusses to Sense Motive).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Did some math on the skills. Your above build would have 90 + (20*Int) skill points (favored class monk for skills). A Rogue would have 180 + (20*Int) skill points (favored class rogue for skills)... that's almost double the amount of skill points unless I have an very high.
It seems to sacrifice too much of the 'skilled' aspect.

Given an Intelligence of 20 thats 190 vs. 280 skill points).

Do you have an idea of what skills you would actually want to have maxed? How many skill points do you figure you'll need, roughly? Obviously no one short of a super min-maxed wizard is going to compete with Rogue for skill point total.

I had the following array of ability scores in mind, using 25 point buy. I added racial at the very end because I found Ophiduan to be the ideal race, but it's a 3rd party psionic race, and while it's on the d20pfsrd, most DMs might not allow it, hence the "plan B" Undine from Bestiary II. Numbers in () are after magical gear. So I figured on Int 22 by level 20 w/ a +6 item. So 210 skill points. And I maintain that a straight Rogue 20 would not be able to afford an int as high as that w/o severely crippling his combat capability. I'd imagine a Rogue 20 that wants to be good in combat could muster Int 14 and a +4 item for Int 18, but that's just a guess.

[sblock]Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8 (initial, pre-race 25 PB)
Str 8, Dex 16 (22), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 20 (26), Cha 8 (level 20, pre-race)
Undine: Str 6, Dex 18 (24), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 22 (28), Cha 8 (level 20, final)
Ophiduan: Str 8, Dex 18 (24), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 22 (28), Cha 6 (level 20, final)
[/sblock]

I could have a higher Intelligence if I geared up but that would make him a lot more 'magicky' (and I don't want too much magical gear, or any if I can help it)).

In D&D, magic gear is essential. Just look at the wealth by level chart sometime. Do you really think you could just forfeit all those thousands of gp in wealth and come out nearly as strong? It's not just falling behind with the party, the CR system of the monsters expects you to have roughly that level of wealth in gear. If it bothers you a lot, I suggest sticking with only things that are all day, permanent buffs, like the stat and AC increases. Since they're continuously working, they remain in the background and you don't even have to think about them. That said, IMHO by higher levels every melee character should have Winged Boots or some other means of flight, there's quite a lot of foes that can make you a spectator or even a helpless victim if you lack it.

That said, your build seems to be an ungodly combatant, capable of a lot with very little).

Thanks, but like any monk, he actually relies a lot on magic: lots of ability scores to boost; mage armor; buff spell to enhance his unarmed strike because the amulet of mighty fists is insanely overpriced; etc... It's unavoidable, though my build certainly holds up better than a normal monk without the gear.

What might also be relevant to note, given the thread title, is that Snake Style allows you to replace (touch) AC with a Sense Motive check against a single ranged or melee attack as an immediate action. This, of course, has insane synergy with Terrain Dominance and Favored Enemy (which offer bonusses to Sense Motive).

Cool! As I said, it was just the first thing that crossed my mind for what you were asking for, a weak looking, unassuming skillful guy that doesn't really use magic at all but is still good in a fight. Feel free to go different routes. I do think Unarmed Fighter 1 followed by two levels of Master of Many Styles Monk is a solid starting point to go in different directions from. Whether it's Rogue, Ranger, Horizon Walker, or something else.

I know you didn't want magic, but maybe consider Archaeologist Bard. It still has the casting, but instead of the very prominent and hard to re-fluff performance, they get a personal only "luck" ability that is probably more your style. They're sort of like rogues without the sneak attack. I don't think it's as good as Bard IF you were doing a 20 level build. But it's pretty good for the first few levels (I'd get out by 2, 4, or 6) if you wanted to combine it with some other multiclassing and/or as a lead in to a prestige class.

If you can just get over the small amount of spellcasting you'd have.

 

[BBQLord]

I fear you may be correct. Magic is indispensable for everyone at high level. And even HW, which I'd staked my hopes on, only really comes into his own at level 9+ (or 12+ or 15+).

Before I derail my own thread too much though, I'd like to return to Terrain Dominance-related ponderings.

At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy.

How does one determine if a creature is native to a terrain?
Is this a matter of looking up the Ecology section in a monster's entry and skip down to the "Environment" line? Is it race dependent (which has some awesome implications when used against Half-Elves and Half-Orcs)? Is it a question of where the individual lived/existed for most of it's (formative?!) years?

1) Monster's Environment entry.
See in my post higher up what implications this has. Suffice it to say; Forest, Underground and Mountains have the most Environment entries (and would net you all save the Halfling as a 'dominated' race).

2) Race Dependent
If it's race-dependent this would mean that, if Humans are native to 'Any' (all) terrains, Half-Elves and Half-orcs would also be native to all terrains by dint of their racial Elf/Orc Blood traits.

Looking at the Core Races this would mean that Humans, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs would be automatically 'dominated' through TD.
Sticking to the Core Races, picking Terrain Dominance (Mountains) would yield a potentially huge bonus against: Dwarves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Humans and Gnomes. And full-blood Orcs in general. The only Core Races you wouldn't have would be Elves and Halflings!


3) Time spend in an environment.
If it's a question of in what environment one spends most of their time, most if not all Core Races would fall under the Favored Terrain (Urban) category. Most civilized races live, eat, work and die in cities and towns! Hell, most beings sleep in a building of some kind (at least 8hrs/day) and walk on streets!