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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 9593360" data-attributes="member: 6801252">So one thing we're in the weeds of that I want to address, is that we're talking about 4e and PF2e in a similar breath with regards to role enforcement, but they're distinctly different in this respect, PF2e has much looser roles than 4e does.Fourth Edition performed it's role enforcement by telling you up front on every class what the role was supposed to be for every single member of that class and then dropping more or less symmetrical class features that made the character capable of performing that role and no others to degree a class intended for that role could. Subclasses provided a secondary role-- for example many Defenders had a subclass that protected less, but provided more damage, but you were still dependent on your main role.For example, in 4e ALL the Defenders got a Marking mechanic that imposed a penalty to hit creatures that weren't them, all the Strikers got a damage boosting feature along the line of Hunter's Quarry or Warlock's Curse.On top of that enforcement class feature all 4e classes also had bespoke powers, and those powers further enforced the role by being appropriate only to that job-- Sorcerer powers had much smaller AOEs than Wizards did because Wizards were the actual controller, whereas Sorcerer just had a dash of controller, but Sorcerer powers were built to do more damage (and this is why Fireball was a trap in 4e, it was balanced for Wizards, but only did damage which Wizards were not equipped to do.) Finally, feat support further doubled down on role-- mark's could gain more protection, while damage features gained more damage from feats.PF2e doesn't do that, the classes don't have defined roles in the first place, and while at first blush you might be forgiven for seeing Sneak Attack/Rage/Fighter +2/ Spellstrike etc as role enforcement, most martials have some form of damage additive rather than split along different directions and it pretty much makes them a martial-- in 4e terms you're almost always starting with a striker and then building other capability on, but I think the actual differential is smaller overall because you don't have the powers emphasizing your role in the same way, many feats are shared between classes and archetypes are cheap and easy ways access to things like a fighter's Double Slice, or Lay on Hands, or whatever.Spellcasters are even less applicable in these terms because they share spells and almost all the damage they do is part of the base spells they cast-- which means it differs from turn to turn, there are dedicated healing builds (usually stacking subclass benefits onto healing spells) but if I, as a cleric of sarenrae with healing hands, elect to toss a fireball for two turns, nothing makes me worse at doing that than the Wizard who fancied themselves as building a blaster, maybe they'll have a few points extra damage from a feat or something, and nothing stops that same Wizard from following their Slow spell up with Hand of the Apprentice to yeet a greatsword into someone if that routinee appeals to them, then blasting for the rest of the combat.By extension, there's no punishment for the wildshaping combat druid to also pack heal spells and sometimes fire them off when I feel like 'just' blasting. Even a blaster is liable to pop an action to try and inflict frightened on a target, or move into a flank to benefit someone else, and feats usually reward that kind of thing. So your role, is really just a set of things different people in the party can do and how each of you wants to spend your actions on any given turn, and what you buy for your particular build, not a set of jobs that specific party members have to fill if they don't want to, they're also interchangeable to a significant extent-- you can make do with perfunctory buffing and battle medicines or one Action Lay on Hands on third action while everyone plays what look a lot like dedicated Striker builds, so the teamwork isn't really about sacrificing unless you want it to be, its more just the skill expression to apply the tools you have at all.</blockquote>

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