House buying through the Stronghold Builder's Guide

[S'mon]

On the chart I quoted in the DMG a tower is 50,000 gp. That is functionally equivalent to the Instant Fortress. A Castle, based on that chart, would be much bigger than a tower.

Given that the mundane tower and the DIF are functionally equivalent, but you can move one of them around at will, don't you think the DIF should cost a bit more? :\

My impression is that the DIF cost is ok, in that it seems more or less in line with other magic item costs. It's the mundane building costs that are far too high, presumably Monte wanted big numbers to impress even high level PCs - but why would a 20th level PC ever spend 2/3 their carefully garnered wealth-by-level on a mediocre castle?! The 1e AD&D DMG building costs were a bit low, but still far better than the 3e version.

 

[S'mon]

One simple D&Dnomics fix I implemented was to assume that all wages included cost of living at an appropriate social status

This way an untrained apprentice (1sp) will have enough silver at the end of the day for a couple of tankards ale and (over the week) a spot of tobbaco --

I pretty much do that - effectively roughly double* most wages IMC - although IRL apprentices were rarely paid, their family often paid the craftsman to take them on; more like going to University than starting work at Walmart (or Asda, as we call it in UK). Another thing I do though is reduce some of the PHB prices if they're plainly off, IMC a pint of ale is usually 1cp (or less!), so pretty much anyone can afford it.

*eg a soldier gets paid 12gp/m not 6gp, he probably only gets to pocket 2gp though after equipment, food etc is deducted. A day labourer hired for a single day will cost 5sp, or 6gp if hired for a month, assuming no accommodation provided. A housemaid or scullion with accommodation provided only costs 1sp/day or 3gp/month though, and probably only sees 5sp of that after food & clothes are deducted from their wages.

 

[gizmo33]

Where are you going to house/feed/stall those 2500 archers and horses?

Think Mongols. Tents. Pasture. Wagon trains. Think Romans - we'll travel with some seige engineers, chop down some trees, dig some trenches around the camp. Set it all on fire when we leave. The simple question is whether a castle is worth the half million or million gps that could be spent on other things. Give me 2500 archers and horses and I'll GO GET the food! (Food is not an issue mitigated by castle construction anyway.) Probably from the guy that lives by himself in his million gp castle because he can't afford servants.

On the chart I quoted in the DMG a tower is 50,000 gp. That is functionally equivalent to the Instant Fortress. A Castle, based on that chart, would be much bigger than a tower.

10 instant fortresses vs. a castle is the comparison, etc. I don't particularly want to make too much of the example, the point is to question the value of a castle compared to the other things that a million gps get you.

All I was saying was the cost of magic items is out of whack because all prices are squared. They should be linear.

They should be? On what basis? Magic items prices are completely linked to the gp/xp cost of creation. IIRC the price is determined by the gp and xp needed to create - what could be more solid than that? If it cost me 20xp to make a +1 sword, and 80xp to make a +2 sword, then the price is simply proportional unless you think there are other factors.

Now if you're saying that a +2 sword should simply be twice as expensive and not four times as expensive (and you reverse engineer the construction costs from that), I suppose that's your call as a DM.

A +2 sword is not twice as powerful as a +1 sword. A +2 sword adds a mere +1 out of 20 to hit and +1 out of 1d8 to damage. But then again, look at violin prices if you get a chance. A top quality sword would command prices far out of proportion with it's usefulness. Wealthy swordsmen would pay an arm and a leg for a simple +1 advantage by analogy to the violin example. IME my players certainly would.

But, again, this isn't the thread for fixing D&D economics. (No thread can do it. )

IMO it doesn't have to be all or nothing. The benefits of the thread are that you can raise issues. I'll work with any information that's posted.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I think it's a bit unfortunate MMS:WE based its prices off the DMG list, so you still have to divide them by 10 to get a reasonable price - ie 51gp for a hovel, not 510gp.

Note that was a 500sf hovel suitable for 6-12 peasants living in it. Cut it down to a single 10x10 (adequate for 2-3 peasants, barely) and it drops to 102gp.

Most people in today's world buy a house that costs 3x their annual salary then fill it with lots of stuff (probably 1x-2x annual salary) for a home with a value of 4x-5x annual. Assuming there is the equivalent of 4 working adults in the 4-room hovel, by the "unskilled workman" entry in Craft the family would get get 1sp/day/adult over a 6-day week, 52week year (less a few for holidays) = 300sp/adult = 120gp/year.

That extended-family hovel amounts to 4.5x the family's annual income. Go JG & Suzy!

Of course I also believe the "lord/liege" relationship is a variant of the bank/homeowner relationship: the liege grants you a home (rude as it is) and you pay him fees, taxes, etc in accordance with the feudal system. Every so often the lord uses the tax money to repair the hovel, likely the homeowner but occassionally a journeyman craftsman.

The peasant will be just as easily screwed by the lord's balloon interest payment plan as many people were in the 60s and 70s.

 

[S'mon]

kigmatzomat - ok, 500 sq feet & 4 rooms is quite some 'hovel'! I agree 500gp doesn't sound much too much for that.
My mother grew up in poverty in Northern Ireland in the 30s & 40s in a 2-room house with maybe 6-8 people in it, that's more typical of traditional peasant life IMO. Her granny's house was a genuine 1-room hut... and she never had an egg until she was 18...

I'm thinking IMC the typical peasant hut is 1-2 rooms and houses an average 5 people (though up to about 12), with average 2-3 workers and gross product 5sp/day. People at this subsistence level rarely can spend 3-5 years' "salary" on a house though, that's a very middle-class phenomenon.

 

[kigmatzomat]

People at this subsistence level rarely can spend 3-5 years' "salary" on a house though, that's a very middle-class phenomenon.

I think the fact they can't afford it is was the point. The peasants lived their lives in debt, which was one of the last holds the nobility had on the masses. Taxes were set by the same people who collected rent and owned the mill and the ovens. The nobility ensured the peasants couldn't get ahead the same way the slaves were trapped by sharecropping.

For those who don't want to run an indebted peasantry, have it take a few years to be a finished home. When young Tommy and Jane declare their intent to wed the families begin construction. Tommy makes the furniture while Jane completes the linens in her hope chest. Wedding gifts finish the house. Once the new couple has their first child, either an elderly or youngish (10yro) relative moves in to help with the chores (and ease the burden on the rest of the family).

 

[S'mon]

Yup - IMC the feudal peasantry live their lives in debt. However there are wilderness areas on the frontiers of civilisation where the rulers say you can live tax free, as long as you're prepared to put up with frequent orc raids... cue the PCs.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Heh. So I'm not the only one using taxes incentives in game, eh? I encourage my land-owning PCs to add defensive structures by applying half of the value to taxes paid over the next 5 years. "Public" construction (wells, aquaducts, roads, etc) done within the first 5 years of ownership is 100% applicable to taxes.

Of course, my PCs are Thanes, not true landowners, and the property reverts to the Duke upon their death so it's all to the benefit of the nobility.

I won't call my players cosmopolitan yet, but they have idly considered the merits of manipulating the mithral spot market for their own benefit.

 

[S'mon]

I've GM's high level a lot where the PC gets his mini-kingdom and the first thing to do is always the negotiation with the Overking over taxes/tribute...