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House of the Dragon spoiler thread
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 8782801" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>[USER=11760]@Whizbang Dustyboots[/USER] , I don't think you are being called out for not liking grimdark. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan myself; I loved Game of Thrones because it was very well done, with great characters and story, and really captured the feel of Martin's world in a way that is rare in fantasy cinema. Meaning, I liked the show <em>in spite of </em>the grimdarkishness, not because of it. While I didn't revel in the grimdark, it didn't bother me because it made sense within the context of the world.</p><p></p><p>Similarly, I'm not a fan of whimsy, which we could say is the opposite of grimdark. But I can also enjoy a whimsical story if told well.</p><p></p><p>I think what you're being called out for (or disagreed with) is drawing a line between the grimdark nature of the shows and some kind of misogyny or mental issue on Martin's part ("he needs therapy"). I don't think that's fair, at least looking at the shows and books as a whole and how Martin writes women in general. If anything, I think he should be lauded for his writing of women - how they are every bit as central to the story as men are, despite the ubiquity of sexism in the world, and the fact that they are every bit as complex, multi-faceted, etc.</p><p></p><p>Meaning, not only are the elements that you don't like not particularly focused on women (that is, in a way incongruent with the world and themes of the show), but they are simply part of the larger genre conventions of grimdark/gritty Medieval fantasy.</p><p></p><p>This is not to say that Medievalist fantasy has to be grimdark. Guy Gavriel Kay writes Medievalist/"Rennaissancian" fantasy and is far from grimdark, and is never accused of being unrealistic or not accurate to the genre, afaik. If you're saying that GoT excessively fetishizes violence and suffering (aka, "torture porn") I think you have a valid argument. But to equate all this with misogyny is uncharitable, to say the least.</p><p></p><p>I mean it is a bit like watching a Nordic Noir show and saying, "The showrunners fetishize murder - how gross; and why is it always gray and cloudy, with no sunshine and rainbows? How tedious." Or watching a whimsical fantasy and saying, "This show is so fluffy - the writers are completely divorced from reality...why isn't it grittier?"</p><p></p><p>TLDR: You don't like grimdark. I get it. To paraphrase Bobby Brown, that's your prerogative. Maybe that's enough? No one is going to (or should) challenge you on that. But your equation of GoT's grimdark elements with misogyny on Martin's part is tenuous at best, and sounds a bit witch-hunty/false accusatory, so people will respond.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 8782801, member: 59082"] [USER=11760]@Whizbang Dustyboots[/USER] , I don't think you are being called out for not liking grimdark. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan myself; I loved Game of Thrones because it was very well done, with great characters and story, and really captured the feel of Martin's world in a way that is rare in fantasy cinema. Meaning, I liked the show [I]in spite of [/I]the grimdarkishness, not because of it. While I didn't revel in the grimdark, it didn't bother me because it made sense within the context of the world. Similarly, I'm not a fan of whimsy, which we could say is the opposite of grimdark. But I can also enjoy a whimsical story if told well. I think what you're being called out for (or disagreed with) is drawing a line between the grimdark nature of the shows and some kind of misogyny or mental issue on Martin's part ("he needs therapy"). I don't think that's fair, at least looking at the shows and books as a whole and how Martin writes women in general. If anything, I think he should be lauded for his writing of women - how they are every bit as central to the story as men are, despite the ubiquity of sexism in the world, and the fact that they are every bit as complex, multi-faceted, etc. Meaning, not only are the elements that you don't like not particularly focused on women (that is, in a way incongruent with the world and themes of the show), but they are simply part of the larger genre conventions of grimdark/gritty Medieval fantasy. This is not to say that Medievalist fantasy has to be grimdark. Guy Gavriel Kay writes Medievalist/"Rennaissancian" fantasy and is far from grimdark, and is never accused of being unrealistic or not accurate to the genre, afaik. If you're saying that GoT excessively fetishizes violence and suffering (aka, "torture porn") I think you have a valid argument. But to equate all this with misogyny is uncharitable, to say the least. I mean it is a bit like watching a Nordic Noir show and saying, "The showrunners fetishize murder - how gross; and why is it always gray and cloudy, with no sunshine and rainbows? How tedious." Or watching a whimsical fantasy and saying, "This show is so fluffy - the writers are completely divorced from reality...why isn't it grittier?" TLDR: You don't like grimdark. I get it. To paraphrase Bobby Brown, that's your prerogative. Maybe that's enough? No one is going to (or should) challenge you on that. But your equation of GoT's grimdark elements with misogyny on Martin's part is tenuous at best, and sounds a bit witch-hunty/false accusatory, so people will respond. [/QUOTE]
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