kitcik
Adventurer
Practically all cantrips in our campaign are used by Detect Magic.
Great before and after an encounter.
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How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!
- Thread starter Jimlock
- Start date
Practically all cantrips in our campaign are used by Detect Magic.
Great before and after an encounter.
Crothian
First Post
How do the players know an encounter is about to happen so that they can cast Detect Magic?
Greenfield
Adventurer
I used to run a cowardly Wizard, and we'd joke that he tried to cast Erase every time he saw battlemat lines appearing on the ground, because they always showed up just as trouble was about to start.
Maybe that's how they know.
Maybe that's how they know.
RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
I mentioned it a few pages earlier, but it bears repeating.
For those asking who would prepare a large amount of Detect Magic spells each day...
Warlock gets Detect Magic as an at-will ability at level 2. Regardless of what you guys decide how this goes, there is an entire class that will be able to exploit whatever it is you conclude.
For those asking who would prepare a large amount of Detect Magic spells each day...
Warlock gets Detect Magic as an at-will ability at level 2. Regardless of what you guys decide how this goes, there is an entire class that will be able to exploit whatever it is you conclude.
Let me offer a different perspective, Jimlock. You claim that the entire Illusion tree of magic is rendered useless by Detect Magic. What if it is?
My response is to challenge your fundamental assertion that this is a bad thing or somehow wrong. I see nothing wrong with the proposition that a 0 level spell is proof against a line of magic that is based on illusions. Considering that most creatures and the majority of classes will not have detect magic at will, illusions will be very effective in many cases. I have no issue with 1st level casters being able to protect their party from illusions.
My response is to challenge your fundamental assertion that this is a bad thing or somehow wrong. I see nothing wrong with the proposition that a 0 level spell is proof against a line of magic that is based on illusions. Considering that most creatures and the majority of classes will not have detect magic at will, illusions will be very effective in many cases. I have no issue with 1st level casters being able to protect their party from illusions.
Jimlock
Adventurer
Don't forget that Vegepygmy's quote from the PHB ends like this:
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion.
Now, you might try to argue that poking something for a few rounds is not the same as throwing a pebble at it....and I agree, but this is where pragmatism has to come in.
Please tell me, how you describe (as a DM) a pebble going through an illusionary wall to the player who threw it and is paying attention to the result.
?
Let me try:
"The pebble just vanished into the stone... perhaps even faster than a hot knife cutting into butter. But the rocky surface did not react. Bizarrely, the sound of the pebble hitting on the stony surface was...late. It was heard only after the small piece of rock had disappeared into the cave's wall for good..."
Now IMHO opinion this is a decent, impartial, description of the effect an attentative PC experiences.
Now in my book this is enough proof to disbelieve an Illusion. Even more, I think this is proof that the illusion isn't real, thus making the save worthless. But even if you argue that the PC does not have enough proof to know that the illusion isn't real (??? - I 'm wandering how you could sell that to the players - ???) and you allow for a save... The PC will eventually get to it, either by trying again, either by throwing bigger things... either by poking it at close distance... EVENTUALLY he will know for sure.
....So much for a 6th - 5th - 4th level Illusion spell... and it all started because of a cantrip detecting it without a sweat.
As for your assessment based on that single line("The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.") .... it's wrong. Let me clarify:
Silent Image
Illusion (Figment)
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Minor Image
Illusion (Figment)
This spell functions like silent image, except that minor image includes some minor sounds but not understandable speech.
Major Image
Illusion (Figment)
This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.
The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately. (we'll come back later to what that means...)
Persistent Image
Illusion (Figment)
This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal components, and the figment follows a script determined by you. The figment follows that script without your having to concentrate on it. The illusion can include intelligible speech if you wish.
Permanent Image
Illusion (Figment)
This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, and the spell is permanent. By concentrating, you can move the image within the limits of the range, but it is static while you are not concentrating.
Programmed Image
Illusion (Figment)
This spell functions like silent image, except that this spell’s figment activates when a specific condition occurs. The figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, including intelligible speech.
You set the triggering condition (which may be a special word) when casting the spell. The event that triggers the illusion can be as general or as specific and detailed as desired but must be based on an audible, tactile, olfactory, or visual trigger. The trigger cannot be based on some quality not normally obvious to the senses, such as alignment. (See magic mouth for more details about such triggers.)
Illusory Wall
Illusion (Figment)
This spell creates the illusion of a wall, floor, ceiling, or similar surface. It appears absolutely real when viewed, but physical objects can pass through it without difficulty. When the spell is used to hide pits, traps, or normal doors, any detection abilities that do not require sight work normally. Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear.
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Figment
A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
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Hallucinatory Terrain
Illusion (Glamer)
You make natural terrain look, sound, and smell like some other sort of natural terrain. Structures, equipment, and creatures within the area are not hidden or changed in appearance.
Disguise Self
Illusion (Glamer)
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.
A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.
Mirage Arcana
Illusion (Glamer)
This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location).
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Glamer
A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
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...so out of all those illusions, only Mirage Arcana is safe from touch detection.... and even then it won't hold long if a character pushes forward with his investigation. One might be able to "feel" a Mirage Arcana effect, but the illusion is "unreal", and cannot support weight, which means that if stronger forces are applied on it's surface the illusion won't hold... and consequently it will reveal itself.
As for:
"The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately." when read in context of all the above, it clearly refers to the casters reaction to make an illusion behave in a way that the false object/creature reacts as if it was actually hit by mundane objects/weapons. It refers to the possibility of imitating the illusion's reaction s in respect to the mundane environment around it.
kitcik
Adventurer
Try taking some ranks in Spot and Listen. It's the schnizzle.
Seriously, though, if you are in a mysterious room / area that somehow puts you on the alert - Detect Magic can often avoid a nasty surprise.
Greenfield
Adventurer
My "assessment" was a direct read from the rules.
If you've decided that the rules, as written, are wrong, then there's no sense in a discussion of the rules. I'll presume that that isn't where you wanted to go with that.
How many times do you normally have to poke a stone wall before it moves, bleeds, flinches or cries out?
Looking at the pebble trick: How do people in the real world react to someone who's always throwing pebbles at everything? Who in their right mind does that?
If someone is maintaining the illusion and you throw a pebble at it, they can let the real pebble go through while adding a real pebble to the illusion. So what our persistent pebble thrower sees is...
"The pebble hits the wall and falls, pretty much the way you'd expect."
As long as the pebble stays in the area, it works. For the lower level illusions that can only do one object, creature or force, it has to stay in contact with the wall to be incorporated into the illusion, which may look odd, but hey, it's a low level spell.
That brings up the one element that's always been missing from the rules: How does a caster makes the illusion "react appropriately"? How do you, as a DM, adjudicate that?
Someone hits the monster, it needs to bleed on cue, not too early, not too late. Timing is critical or the illusion loses credibility.
This, I think, is a crucial piece of the puzzle. The caster certainly has to be in a position to see the pebble hit the wall, the sword hit the monster. That means that they probably have to be present, and thus vulnerable to attack.
I used to use Reflex saves for that kind of timing issue. Some I know have used Spellcraft. But there's nothing actually written down, and I've watched over the years as people came up with more and more excuses to nerf Illusions.
Now, if the pebble-throwing and poking of everything is only in response to an Illusion already detected, we're talking about two completely different things. You're trying to fight a battle that's already lost.
To address your original concern: How/why does your party (or maybe your DM) greet everything they see with Detect Magic? How do they have it always available and running?
I used to play with a DM who used Detect Magic as the excuse for his monsters to spot every PC sentry on watch automatically. Somehow they always knew when they were approaching a guard post so they knew when to cast it.
Like I said, I used to play with that DM. I don't any more. Unless a monster has the special ability "Telepathy with DM", it shouldn't be given to them.
Do the critters in your game have Telepathy with DM? Or the automatic ability "Detect Impending Encounter"? Do the PCs? I doubt it.
From the sound of your original complaint, somebody isn't playing by the rules. Whether it's throwing pebbles at everything, throwing spells constantly, or poking everything they see with a stick, they'll eventually run out of spells, or people will run out of patience with them. Most people don't like getting poked, repeatedly, every time Mr. Paranoid shows up.
So if you're the DM, don't limit yourself to describing areas only when encounters are about to begin. If the players are picking up on your illusions because they're able to see which scenes or areas are important, based on the fact that they're drawn out on the map or described by the DM, then the DM is doing something wrong.
If you're a player and every opponent comes into an area with Detect Magic up and running already, then find another DM. Yours cheats.
Crothian
First Post
An entire optional class that I've only seen played once since it came out (and that was by me because I wanted to try out the class) and have seen many DMs on the boards who flat out don't allow it. If the problem is that Warlock can cast a 24 hour detect magic then I find the problem is with the warlock and not detect magic.
