How about a deadline to WotC?

[Fifth Element]

Anyone can try to interpret all these things as "maybe they're not bad..." But the common sense interpretation is that yeah - they're bad.

Wow, pretty broad brush there. Anyone who disagrees with you is just trying to disagree with you, while anyone who agrees with you is using common sense. Pull the other one.

 

[SteveC]

I just got back from a conversation with my FLGS owner about 4E, and I thought they had a interesting point about sales and the GSL.

It started when I asked them about sales of 4E, and they told me that core book sales had been good, but all of the supplements were moving only in modest levels. I asked if the 4E sales had been comparable to 3E and they said heavens no!

From a FLGS perspective, 4E sales have been terrible in comparison to 3E because they look at the whole line, including third party support, not simply that of products from WotC. The D20 license and OGL brought with it well over 100 books by this time in the line in the 3E and 3.5 days. Think about that in FLGS terms: you're selling maybe a dozen titles for 4E when you had dozens and dozens of books earlier.

As I thought about it, I think that's a key reason people say 4E hasn't sold as well as 3E: because of the lack of third party support. For better or for worse, I had spent a lot more on 3X by this point than I have for 4E.

Does that affect WotC in a negative way? I don't know. My FLGS owner thought that it did because the D20/OGL movement created a buzz of interest for all D&D products that just doesn't exist in our area now.

Just annecdotes, but something to think about (hopefully).

--Steve

 

[mxyzplk]

Dude, are you really serious? Wait, you're right, a couple of the many 3p companies have put out one or two GSL products, companies which otherwise generate a quite large number of new products a month. Sounds like love.

I round 98% to "totally." YMMV.

We're talking about companies that published most of their products under OGL in 3e-times. That's large scale rejection of the new GSL. It is of course technically not undeniable, you are free to deny it, it's just not reasonable. I'm sure that statement makes you sad, but it seems like that's par for the course with ya so sorry.

 

[Fifth Element]

Dude, are you really serious?

Oookay, time to get off.

 

[justanobody]

Eh, I think the ship has sailed on having a usable GSL.

And it ended up like the Titanic. I don't see it something very major for them to worry about right now no matter how much Scott and us people may want to fight for it. WotC has its sights only on Digital D&D and Digital Magic the Gathering.

Not like people really need it anyway, as I myself and going to look into OSRIC and throw away the powers I created for 4th edition to remain as house-rule junk until I stop playing 4th.

So WotC can keep the GSL for all it matters from me.

 

[Shroomy]

I just got back from a conversation with my FLGS owner about 4E, and I thought they had a interesting point about sales and the GSL.

It started when I asked them about sales of 4E, and they told me that core book sales had been good, but all of the supplements were moving only in modest levels. I asked if the 4E sales had been comparable to 3E and they said heavens no!

From a FLGS perspective, 4E sales have been terrible in comparison to 3E because they look at the whole line, including third party support, not simply that of products from WotC. The D20 license and OGL brought with it well over 100 books by this time in the line in the 3E and 3.5 days. Think about that in FLGS terms: you're selling maybe a dozen titles for 4E when you had dozens and dozens of books earlier.

As I thought about it, I think that's a key reason people say 4E hasn't sold as well as 3E: because of the lack of third party support. For better or for worse, I had spent a lot more on 3X by this point than I have for 4E.

Does that affect WotC in a negative way? I don't know. My FLGS owner thought that it did because the D20/OGL movement created a buzz of interest for all D&D products that just doesn't exist in our area now.

Just annecdotes, but something to think about (hopefully).

--Steve

I have to think that the internet would have had a bigger impact on the 4e sales at the brick and mortar stores. I've bought and will continue to buy my 4e stuff through Amazon; I kind of feel guilty when I game over at Pegasus, but I doubt I would be able to buy as much as I do now at full cover price (I doubt my fiancee would have approved in that case).

 

[Umbran]

But the common sense interpretation is that yeah - they're bad.

It is of course technically not undeniable, you are free to deny it, it's just not reasonable.

I am going to have to ask you to please stop speaking like it is not possible to be reasonable and yet not agree with you. That you have a lock on all reason... simply isn't a reasonable assertion. It comes off as rather condescending, and is starting to annoy some folks. Thanks.

 

[SteveC]

I have to think that the internet would have had a bigger impact on the 4e sales at the brick and mortar stores. I've bought and will continue to buy my 4e stuff through Amazon; I kind of feel guilty when I game over at Pegasus, but I doubt I would be able to buy as much as I do now at full cover price (I doubt my fiancee would have approved in that case).

I agree with you here. It's starting to get a little tangental, but I think that the price increases for books have pushed a lot of people just past their comfort zone where they'll pick up a book as an impulse buy. I bought a PHB from Pegasus, but also picked up the core rulebooks in the boxed set from Amazon. It was silly not to do so. When I had all the books, I ended up giving away the extra PHB as a gift, and I still saved money over just buying the books retail. I've spoken with the folks at Pegasus about this (both Shroomy and I are Madisonians, and we have a very good store in Pegasus Games) and they've seen it a lot. I still end up buying a lot of product from them, but it's different stuff (boardgames mostly).

Frankly, if there were a lot of GSL based books out there, I'd likely be buying more locally, since those books have a lower price point than what WotC is making these days.

--Steve

 

[Grimstaff]

Dude, are you really serious? Wait, you're right, a couple of the many 3p companies have put out one or two GSL products, companies which otherwise generate a quite large number of new products a month. Sounds like love.

I round 98% to "totally." YMMV.

We're talking about companies that published most of their products under OGL in 3e-times. That's large scale rejection of the new GSL. It is of course technically not undeniable, you are free to deny it, it's just not reasonable. I'm sure that statement makes you sad, but it seems like that's par for the course with ya so sorry.

It seems like your assertions are based more on the gaming business climate of 2002-2005 or so - nearly all these companies you keep listing as not jumping on the GSL bandwagon had already fallen by the wayside months before 4E was even announced.

Green Ronin, Necromancer, Mongoose, Fiery Dragon, Malhavoc, Kenzer, and Goodman were about the only "big" viable d20 publishers left at the time of the 4E announcement, and of those, only Goodman was releasing anything with a volume approaching that of the days before the d20 bubble burst.

You can certainly trot out a long list of publishers big and small that haven't produced GSL product, but its ultimately meaningless - they're not producting OGL stuff either.

Its easy to forget that the D&D-related games market in 2006-2007 was dwindling away...

 

[mxyzplk]

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