How about this idea: At-Will/Encounter/Daily for EACH spell

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

One other thing. 5e have flat out established that spell "power" is NOT going to be linked to caster level, so no "X missiles per Y caster level" type of implementation will be there.

Magic Missile currently works that way in the playtest, however.

 

[BobTheNob]

Magic Missile currently works that way in the playtest, however.

Your right. It has always been a bit of a mystery to me though. They have flat out stated that caster level wont be tied to spell power, then they went ahead and did that in the playtest. Just odd.

 

[Pour]

I haven't played it yet with DCC, but I'd be down for trying some sort of spellcraft check (which cannot be mutated by feats or breakable options) rolled against DCs on a specific spell's casting chart. I know, I know, spells become more complicated, harder to balance, and a page long each, but if each individual DC result is clearly written in a mix of 4e mechanical clarity and older edition implications, I have no problem referencing as a player. I'd have fun with it, actually- especially if a character builder allowed me to print them as part of my sheet. In a way, you kind of develop a spellbook hehe.

Tie this into certain usability thresholds, maybe DC 12 or under, this is a daily; DC 20 is an encounter; DC 28 this spell can be cast again type thing. Natural 1 has to be some sort of backfire, and natural 20 is automatic recharge.

No caster should be left without some fallback, though, so certain classes could have predispositions toward certain spells, like a wizard needing to only beat DC 20 to regain magic missile and necromancer DC 20 to get back animate dead. Pyromancer theme would give you a slight break on the DCs for fire spells, etc. Then again, cantrips seem fine too.

Eh, just spitballin', but DCC magic expanded through checks does have me thinking. Not a really lean or basic friendly system, though. Also seems balanced more on the whim of the dice than anything else. Possibly alleviate that a little by giving a spell a default usability to fall back on, whether encounter or daily, which casters can try to manipulate through spellcraft into something 2/day or 2/encounter, or better. I think the real gray area becomes the effects on the chart.

 

[Stormonu]

Not too fond of the fact that there is an "encounter" power variant though. Im not a fan of "encounter centric" design, and 5e is moving toward "adventure centric", so Im not sure about the inclusion of an encounter variant.

I say go with a "recharge" mechanic and you can develop the equivalent of an encounter with more versatility in how you get it back. As long as the recharging action is something you couldn't feasibly do in the midst of a combat (say, taking a minute to meditate and regather the necessary magical energy, rebuild a fetish/focus, inscribe a magic circle and recite a chant to a power associated with the spell, etc.), it becomes an encounter-based spell without the encounter dirty word.

Having one spell that could prepared three ways - at-will, rechargable/encounter or daily would be a neat twist. Of course, not all spells might qualify for each type (I have a really hard time envisioning sleep as an at-will without significant enough changes to name it something else). And it might be possible at higher levels that what was once an encounter or daily move to be usable more often (Say A 3rd spell level fireball going from Daily at 5th character level to Recharge at 16th character level)

Example:

Magic Missile
Evocation * Force
Level: Arcane 1
Range: 100 feet
Target: One Creature
You hurl a bolt of force at a target that deals 1d4+1 damage
At-Will: Attack vs. AC
Encounter: automatic hit; Recharge: 1 minute (Meditation)
Daily: 4 missiles, automatic hit

Knock
Alteration
Level: Arcane 1
Range: Touch
Target: One locked object
You unlock the target object
At-Will: Int vs. Lock DC
Encounter: Int with Advantage vs. Lock DC; Recharge: 10 minutes (Meditation)
Daily: Int + 10 vs. Lock DC

 

[BobTheNob]

[MENTION=52734]Stormonu[/MENTION]

Thats actually pretty good. I have said I dont want encounter centric result...but my key dislike of encounter powers was the "you can only do it once" stipulation, and vancian with recharge trumps that anyway, so there is a satisfactory compromise for me there.

This idea does actually open the door to ALOT of spell casting per day. For instance, the Knock example, well, I only have to memorise it once really and with a total of an hours worth of resting I could cast it six times. Thats a colossal increase.

To support the idea I might suggest that it would need to be accompanied by a reduction in spell slots.

On another note, there is another way of looking at this. Assuming spells could be memorized as rechargeable, do we really need at-wills? For instance, if I could memorize 3 magic missile and 2 acid arrows in a rechargeable (i.e. a little less powerful than daily, but better than low end at-will expectations) manner, thats 5 castings = easily enough to see me acting each round of combat. If I could do that and after the fight take an hour rest to get them back, then the requirement to be able to effectively use magic every round and not have to pull out the crossbow/dagger is satisfied.

 

[CM]

Your right. It has always been a bit of a mystery to me though. They have flat out stated that caster level wont be tied to spell power, then they went ahead and did that in the playtest. Just odd.

I presume this ties in with the scaling damage of the "basic attack" type abilities of each class. The fighter gets more attacks, the wizard gets a scaling magic missile, the rogue gets scaling sneak attack. Not sure why radiant lance doesn't scale, though.

 

[BASHMAN]

I say go with a "recharge" mechanic and you can develop the equivalent of an encounter with more versatility in how you get it back. As long as the recharging action is something you couldn't feasibly do in the midst of a combat (say, taking a minute to meditate and regather the necessary magical energy, rebuild a fetish/focus, inscribe a magic circle and recite a chant to a power associated with the spell, etc.), it becomes an encounter-based spell without the encounter dirty word.

Having one spell that could prepared three ways - at-will, rechargable/encounter or daily would be a neat twist. Of course, not all spells might qualify for each type (I have a really hard time envisioning sleep as an at-will without significant enough changes to name it something else). And it might be possible at higher levels that what was once an encounter or daily move to be usable more often (Say A 3rd spell level fireball going from Daily at 5th character level to Recharge at 16th character level)

Example:

Magic Missile
Evocation * Force
Level: Arcane 1
Range: 100 feet
Target: One Creature
You hurl a bolt of force at a target that deals 1d4+1 damage
At-Will: Attack vs. AC
Encounter: automatic hit; Recharge: 1 minute (Meditation)
Daily: 4 missiles, automatic hit

Knock
Alteration
Level: Arcane 1
Range: Touch
Target: One locked object
You unlock the target object
At-Will: Int vs. Lock DC
Encounter: Int with Advantage vs. Lock DC; Recharge: 10 minutes (Meditation)
Daily: Int + 10 vs. Lock DC

I like this idea better than my initial proposed one.

 

[erleni]

Your right. It has always been a bit of a mystery to me though. They have flat out stated that caster level wont be tied to spell power, then they went ahead and did that in the playtest. Just odd.

Actually when they said that caster level will not be tied to spell power they were always discussing spells you prepare in a "spell slot". Maybe they have a different approach with at-wills (just wondering...)

 

[FireLance]

Knock
Alteration
Level: Arcane 1
Range: Touch
Target: One locked object
You unlock the target object
At-Will: Int vs. Lock DC
Encounter: Int with Advantage vs. Lock DC; Recharge: 10 minutes (Meditation)
Daily: Int + 10 vs. Lock DC

Wait, what I want to know is, if you can use a mystical force to open a door, why can't you use it offensively? Can you imagine what it could do to a creature's internal organs? Knock should work as follows:

Knock
Level: Arcane 1
Range: Touch
Target: One creature or locked object
You create a mystical force that deals internal damage to the creature or unlocks the target object
At-Will: Melee attack vs. AC, 1d6 + magic ability modifier damage; or Int vs. Lock DC
Encounter: Melee attack vs. AC, 2d6 + magic ability modifier damage; or Int with Advantage vs. Lock DC; Recharge: 10 minutes (Meditation)
Daily: Melee attack vs. AC, 4d6 + magic ability modifier damage. On a miss, the target takes half that much damage; or Int + 10 vs. Lock DC

Brought to you by: the unholy union of rules lawyering, overthinking magic and ensuring all abilities are useful in combat.

 

[Yora]

It sounds unnecessarily convoluted. Spell lists would more than triple in size and become harder to read and sort through. Tracking of spell use would also become significantly more complicated.

The only way it could work was if a Wizard could only ever prepare 3 or 4 spells at once. So you would probably need to ditch the concept of spell levels and significantly pare down the over-all spell list.

Otherwise, the idea of wizard having a fair bit of flexibility when wielding a particular kind of spell has its appeal. Even 4E did this somewhat by making similarly themed spells available as at-will, encounter, and daily powers.

My only question would be what non-spellcasters would get to match that kind of versatility.

I'd say Psionic Power Augmentation from Expanded Psionic Handbook is the best way to do that. Get the basic spell for the basic cost, or put additional spell points into it to beef up the effect considerably. You learn the spell once and any time you cast it you can decide on the fly if you want it basic or with upgrades from augmentation or metamagic.