How Broken Is It to Just Advance Characters Past 20th w/o Epic Rules?

[HeavenShallBurn]

Well cantrips should really have been at will 1 per round anyway given how low their relative power level is compared to the others as they scale up.

As far as BAB and saves, well continuing standard BAB does produce a big dicrepency after a while but doesn't it make sense that there would be one? Having the BAB curve suddenly flatten so abruptly was kind of offputting. As for saves what about shifting low saves to medium saves at that point (lvl20) to help with that situation?

The FeanMercution epic spell system is rather good, though I'd perhaps modify it a bit. Since I just continued the spell level and slot progression out normally it added >9th level spell slots at epic levels and then you use spellcraft DC to determine the level but allow anyone with a slot to prepare and cast a spell of the appropriate level without adding a spellcraft check to the process. That and I toned down the cost and research time because I really gave out less monetary treasure than was normal.

 

[Li Shenron]

Definitely it's not going to be worse than the official epic rules

I'd consider these two options:

1) Extend normal progressions

- BAB increases as the base class (extra attacks may or may not top out as you prefer)
- ST increases as the base class
- same HP and skill points per level, max ranks increase normally
- same feat every 3 levels and ability boost every 4
- all class abilities directly based on level increase normally (e.g. caster level, turn undead, DC of special abilities)
- abilities with a linear pattern increase at the same speed (e.g. favored enemy, sneak attack, bardic music per day, wizard spells known)
- abilities without a linear pattern top out (e.g. spells per day, sorcerer spells known, ranger combat style, wildshape)

This way require a small work, and I think at least until level 25th you would also have minimal problems.

2) Top out classes at 20th, but not characters

IOW, if a character goes 21st and she already has 20 levels in a single class, she'll get 1st level in a second class. This effectively means forcing multiclassing, but I don't think it's bad at all. Characters would face normal multiclassing penalties if they don't take favored classes, but of course they could take prestige classes too. Anyway for NPCs it totally doesn't matter.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My plan for this is that classes remain capped at 20th level, but character level can grow beyond 20 through free multiclassing, making epic level characters more broadly capable.

I do like the original 3e forgotton realms idea of epic casters getting one additional spell slot of each level over 9th for each character level over 20th (to be used with metamagiced spells). It was better with 3e stacking of metamagic (whyever did they get rid of that, eh?) but is still useful - using that 11th level slot for an empowered meteor storm, or a still silent imprisonment for instance.

Cheers

 

[el-remmen]

Yeah, 10th level spell slots are not helpful for my house-ruled spontaenous metamagic feats (except Heighten Spell) - though I guess the ability to cast effectively 10th or 11th or higher level spells (even if none exist) will allow for applying metamagic feats to higher level spells.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

The Fean-Mercution epic spellcasting variant builds spells using a slightly modified epic spellcasting seed system then uses the resulting spellcraft DC to determine what level they are. Has examples of spells from 10th to 24th? level, and if you've maintained the spell-slot progression you can simply do away with the spellcraft DC to cast and let them prepare and cast these spells as normal using the >9th lvl slots.

It was posted here on EN World a while back you should be able to find it with a search. If not go over to Dicefreaks since that's where they hang out mostly It was posted in that forum the last time I check. (Also if you're essentially tossing the epic rules on spellcasting why not toss the metamagic ceiling too and just say you can metamagic it up to any level you have a slot for to prepare it)

 

[RFisher]

If I were to ever get to such levels, it's always seemed to me that the campaign would be much less focused on mechanics by that time.

Also, I've never had a problem with characters reaching a point at which players begin to want to retire them. It just seems natural.

When I had hopes of DMing a 3e campaign beyond 20th level, I had two plans I was trying to decide between:

(1) Progression stops at 20th level. You've reached the pinnacle of humanoid acheivement. Congratulations. I expect (like most classic Traveller characters) you can manage to enjoy the game without the numbers on your character sheet growing further.

(2) The core classes stop at 20th level. The PrCs stop at 10th. (Or, with the current rules, whatever level the class stops with.) To continue, you have to multiclass. (I never enforced the multiclass XP penalty.)

I can see nothing game-breaking about either of these, but my idea of what is game-breaking may be different than others'.

 

[monboesen]

I see no great problems by continuing advancing beyond 20th level with the standard rules.


However I don't really see any point in doing so if your game (like mine) never really progress beyond 11-12th level.

Any character (at least any spellcaster) of level 20+ should be able to overpower 11-12th characters so easily that there is not even a need for rules to cover it. You might as well just tell the players that they lost.

 

[ruleslawyer]

True dat.

I've never bothered writing up stats for NPCs unless they are specifically intended to be combat encounters, which include neither "friendly" NPCs nor those of a high enough CR to be out of the PCs' league. It's one of the reasons why the inclusion of those stat blocks in stuff like the FR sourcebooks (or DDG) irritates the heck out of me.

As for the more immediate issue:

IMHO, the only real issue with using the core rules to model characters of 21+ level is that there are no published class abilities for such characters. In terms of stuff like BAB, HD, saves, and so on: Knock yourself out. I don't see advancing BAB normally after 20th level as a problem (in fact, I'd probably do this if I ran an epic game anyway, since allowing fighters to auto-hit (and thus probably all Power Attack all the time) seems pretty reasonable if the casters are getting to throw epic magic).

 

[Anson Caralya]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned. Another option is to use the pre-ELH epic rules as set forth in FRCS, p. 289. At each level beyond 20th, you may do one of the following:

+1 effective level: Pick a class you have, get the class features and skill points; can't go above 20th. Your BAB, saves, hp, HD don't increase.
+1 to an ability.
+1 to attack (increase to BAB, doesn't increase iterative attacks)
+1 bonus spell level. Gain one slot one level higher than the max you can currently cast. Only applicable once you've reached 20th level in the spellcasting class, only good for the extra slot or with metamagic.

Overall, it's a very light system which allows decent flexibility, and I think would cover through at least level 25 without much problem. Some type of HD advancement would round it out.

 

[Storyteller01]

Arcana Evolved gives level progession up to 25th in this way. You could ask folks who play that and get their opinion.