How can a Fighter get Stoneskin?

[Kishin]

You lose:
- Action point bonus
- 11th level Paragon bonus (one or two nice things)
- 16th level Paragon bonus (one nice thing)

You gain:
- Switch one of your At-Will powers

The powers are basically a wash, though in many instances the Paragon Path powers are quite good.

So you have to look at whether getting to switch an At-Will power is worth 3-4 nice things. IMHO, it never is, not even for awesome At-Wills like Twin Strike or Righteous Brand.

Cheers, -- N

I disagree. Its worth it for Righteous Brand. That power is simply that good if you're a high Strength character.

Then again, that's about the only case where it is worth it...

 

[nittanytbone]

Just taking the multiclass feat and grabbing it as an encounter power is likely sufficient. Although INT is normally a dump stat for fighters and clerics, so even the 13 required for the feat is painful...

 

[DracoSuave]

However Int 12 is not as painful.

 

[jaelis]

I disagree. Its worth it for Righteous Brand. That power is simply that good if you're a high Strength character.

Also, look at twin strike for a rogue. Lets say he has two +3 rapiers, weapon focus, and the backstabber feat. Give him Dex 20 and Cha 18, and compare to sly flourish.

For a 50% hit chance (with combat advantage):
Sly flourish: damage = (0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF + 5 dex +4 cha + 13.5 sneak) = 16

Twin strike: damage = (2 attacks)*(0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF) + (0.75 hit once)*(13.5 sneak) = 19.6

+3.6 damage is pretty decent... that's almost as much as the extra damage you get from sly flourish itself. And at epic it is significantly better since the base damage, sneak attack, and enhancement bonuses will all be higher.


For instance, upgrade to Dex 24, Cha 22, +6 weapons:

Sly flourish -> (0.5 hit)*(9 weapon +6 enhance + 3 WF + 7 dex + 6 cha + 22.5 sneak) = 26.75

Twin strike -> 2*(0.5)*(9 weapon +6 enhance + 3 WF) + 0.75*(22.5 sneak) = 34.9

I think you can make a case for that being worth losing a few paragon path abilities.

 

[Victim]

Also, look at twin strike for a rogue. Lets say he has two +3 rapiers, weapon focus, and the backstabber feat. Give him Dex 20 and Cha 18, and compare to sly flourish.

For a 50% hit chance (with combat advantage):
Sly flourish: damage = (0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF + 5 dex +4 cha + 13.5 sneak) = 16

Twin strike: damage = (2 attacks)*(0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF) + (0.75 hit once)*(13.5 sneak) = 19.6

+3.6 damage is pretty decent... that's almost as much as the extra damage you get from sly flourish itself. And at epic it is significantly better since the base damage, sneak attack, and enhancement bonuses will all be higher.

Twin Strike uses STR to attack for melee, so the rogue now needs 20 STR and 20 DEX to maintain his attack bonus. Rapiers don't have the off hand property, so have fun dual weilding them without the special ranger ability. And you need two magic weapons.

Plus I'd generally expect a rogue to be hitting a lot more than half the time with combat advantage.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Also, look at twin strike for a rogue. Lets say he has two +3 rapiers, weapon focus, and the backstabber feat. Give him Dex 20 and Cha 18, and compare to sly flourish.

For a 50% hit chance (with combat advantage):
Sly flourish: damage = (0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF + 5 dex +4 cha + 13.5 sneak) = 16

Twin strike: damage = (2 attacks)*(0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF) + (0.75 hit once)*(13.5 sneak) = 19.6

+3.6 damage is pretty decent... that's almost as much as the extra damage you get from sly flourish itself. And at epic it is significantly better since the base damage, sneak attack, and enhancement bonuses will all be higher.

A few problems:

(a) Only a ranger with the twf option could dual wield rapiers. A Rogue could have the double sword from Adventurer's vault and it would be effectively the same thing

but

(b) Twin strike uses strength for melee attacks and dex for ranged attacks. That means that a rogue would not be as likely to hit with the twin strike, since it is very unlikely they would also have 20 strength. Best case scenario, given the dex and charisma you listed is that he'd have 18 str [We'll go with a drow/halfling, that means 15+2 for Dex and 13+2 for charisma, getting the full bonus each time, that would cost 10 points, allowing for 12 points to be spent on strength giving it a 17 str, or if str did get the bonus from leveling, it could be possible to have 16 starting str (9), 17 dex (7) and 16 cha (5) charisma and str each get 1 boost, while dex gets 2 before all three are boosted at 11]. So, in the "best case scenario", the twin strike is only hitting 45% of the time.

Twin strike: damage = (2 attacks)*(0.45 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF) + (0.70 hit once)*(13.5 sneak) = 18

It's still up there, of course, but at that point, it may be a good idea to go with the brutal rogue type, improving the sneak attack damage by 4. That would make the difference even greater.

So a level 11 rogue with 18 STR and CHA, plus 20 DEX would do well to full out multiclass into ranger. However, he would need the superior weapon prof and the weapon focus, which along with the 4 feats required for full multiclass, you've filled your allotment, meaning you've taken the backstabber feat at 11 to get this scenario. You are also missing out on two weapon fighting, two weapon defence, nimble blade and other feats that could replace the 4 multiclass feats that can increase the initial damage/chance to hit [or just get better defence, or better initiative which allow the rogue to deal more damage over time].

 

[jaelis]

Twin Strike uses STR to attack for melee, so the rogue now needs 20 STR and 20 DEX to maintain his attack bonus. Rapiers don't have the off hand property, so have fun dual weilding them without the special ranger ability. And you need two magic weapons.

Certainly... you'd have to build your rogue to take advantage of it, and all the other ranger power you would be getting. But a Dex/Str brutal rogue works fine. (You get to add your Str to the sneak attack damage, for instance.) I think Dex 20/Str 20 at mid paragon levels is entirely reasonable, just start at 16/16.

Good point about not getting an offhand rapier though.

Plus I'd generally expect a rogue to be hitting a lot more than half the time with combat advantage.

Perhaps. I'm not sure who would gain more in that case though.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Also, look at twin strike for a rogue. Lets say he has two +3 rapiers, weapon focus, and the backstabber feat. Give him Dex 20 and Cha 18, and compare to sly flourish.

For a 50% hit chance (with combat advantage):
Sly flourish: damage = (0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF + 5 dex +4 cha + 13.5 sneak) = 16

Twin strike: damage = (2 attacks)*(0.5 hit)*(4.5 weapon + 3 enhance + 2 WF) + (0.75 hit once)*(13.5 sneak) = 19.6

+3.6 damage is pretty decent... that's almost as much as the extra damage you get from sly flourish itself. And at epic it is significantly better since the base damage, sneak attack, and enhancement bonuses will all be higher.


For instance, upgrade to Dex 24, Cha 22, +6 weapons:

Sly flourish -> (0.5 hit)*(9 weapon +6 enhance + 3 WF + 7 dex + 6 cha + 22.5 sneak) = 26.75

Twin strike -> 2*(0.5)*(9 weapon +6 enhance + 3 WF) + 0.75*(22.5 sneak) = 34.9

I think you can make a case for that being worth losing a few paragon path abilities.

Except that you've probably got 2 problems with it.
a) I don't think he can use 2 rapiers because they aren't offhand weapons
b) If he's using twin strike with melee weapons he's attacking with strength which will reduce his chance to hit.

 

[DracoSuave]

Or he could toss daggers using Twin Strike, cause.... Brutal Scoundrel isn't -that- much of a damage difference where TS is concerned.