How Can I Make 4e Into A Gritty Survival Game?

4e D&D is a game of dramatic, dynamic heroes...but it can also be a game of gritty, nail-biting survival tension. INCONCEIVABLE, you say? Baby, I believe at least six impossible things before breakfast. I've got three little tricks that turn this ruleset into my obedient little spaniel. Come watch it beg for treats.

4e D&D is a game of dramatic, dynamic heroes...but it can also be a game of gritty, nail-biting survival tension. INCONCEIVABLE, you say? Baby, I believe at least six impossible things before breakfast. I've got three little tricks that turn this ruleset into my obedient little spaniel. Come watch it beg for treats.




Less Explosions, More Slow Burns
One of the more controversial steps 4e took toward its vision of a heroic fantasy game was to embrace the idea of an exciting, compelling, up-and-down pace to the game, one that emphasized coming close to death, and snapping victory from its jaws in every encounter. The game was designed from the ground up to have an ebb and flow of character HP and monster HP such that every combat, at every level, would follow a similar arc of challenging the party until they healed up and eventually emerged victorious.

This was controversial in part because previous editions had embraced a high-tension dungeon survival style that emphasized strategic resource management and a preponderance of caution in a world that was slowly whittling your life-force away until you could return from the wilderness and heal. The up-and-down roller-coaster style wasn’t always a change for the better, and 4e never really embraced this style.

Rules reinforce experience. A lot of people weren't fond of the experience 4e's rules were selling.

By default. Because this is D&D, and because we are all tinkerers, default is only one mode to run on. The possibility of a grittier, more survival-oriented style was always there. One of the amazing accomplishments of 4e is a truly tight, symmetrical, well-integrated math system, and this gives 4e the quality of being remarkably hackable. Though official publications haven’t delivered much on this promise, a canny observer will see a lot of potential within 4e’s structure. A lot of oh so exploitable structure.

What this means is that, regardless of what kind of game it insisted on being in the official material, a lot of different kinds of games can run on 4e’s math-chassis quite well. Even if you think Rob Heinsoo and James Wyatt shot your dog back in 2008, you can use that mathematical underpinning they developed for your own nefarious purposes. It might not be entirely obvious how to do that, but it’s entirely possible, and that’s what I’m here for today: to show you a few strategies to make 4e’s math work for your games like a well-trained seal, performing tricks for your amusement.

In particular, I’m here to tell you how you can rather easily play 4e with an experience closer to that of early-edition dungeon survival than of 4e-style heroic near-death-and-resurgence. It really only involves three major steps that, when combined, create a game where your characters will hoard HP’s closer, spend their resources more wisely, and ultimately adopt a more cautious, tempered style of play than 4e normally encourages.

mcclane-shoes.jpg

This....is not going to heal in 5 minutes.

Step 1: Rip Out Healing Surges
A concept that 4e introduced into the core was the idea that your HP pool doesn’t represent all of your HP. In addition to your typical HP pool, you have a second pool of “healing surges” that can be used to replenish your HP. They are meant to be used in combat whenever you are healed, and out of combat whenever you want to top off your current HP. They’re similar to “reserve points” from 3e’s Unearthed Arcana. They help account for long-term attrition in 4e, while keeping every encounter balanced assuming that the PC’s have full HP.

But let’s say you hate them and want them to die in a fire. Let’s say you’re a big fan of “Your HP is your HP, and when it is gone, you are gone,” and imagine healing surges in D&D work about as well as “Sanity Surges” would work in Call of Cthulu. Or, that you just don’t want to deal with the added complexity. Thanks to 4e’s tight math, it’s not a big deal. There’s actually a few ways you can do it. Here’s one.

Each healing surge is considered to be ¼ of your character’s HP. So the easy way to get rid of them is just to take your character’s number of surges, and take ¼ of your character’s HP, and multiply them together. Add the total onto your max HP.

As an example: you’re a first-level Fighter with a CON of 14 (+2). You normally have 29 hp and 11 surges, with a surge value of 7. To get rid of surges, just convert all of your surges to HP (77) and add them to your HP total (29 + 77). Your fighter now has 106 HP. A first-level Wizard with a CON of 8, in comparison, has 38 HP.

Step 2: Healthy, Wounded, Bloodied, and Critical
Having a large pool of HP does change the arc of each combat pretty dramatically. Characters in this system won’t get bloodied very easily, and they’ll stay bloodied for longer when they do. They’ll also be less at-risk in each encounter of falling unconscious, which makes them slightly more survivable overall. If you construct encounters as recommended, you may find your players not really in need of much healing or at risk of dying until 2 or 3 encounters into the day.

Healing might need to change a bit, too, if you’re using this. For one, you can’t heal HP with a short rest (you’ve already “spent” your surges, so to speak). You do heal all of your HP with an extended rest.

For two, abilities that let you heal in combat (like second wind or the various leader abilities) suddenly are a lot less potent – anything that enables you to “spend a surge” essentially doesn’t contain that step anymore, and so you don’t regain that HP. Leaders are now far less important to the party’s survival, and you could even play without a party healer, and be completely fine. Healing that doesn’t rely on surges is still viable, but it becomes virtually the only source of big healing in a game where the cleric only restores 1d6 HP, twice per encounter.

Encounter-based healing raises a bit of a different issue, too: there’s nothing stopping that cleric from “spamming” Healing Word out of combat and just healing everyone up to full 1d6 HP at a time. You can just put in a hard limit on the number of times that a character can benefit from that (say, four times per Milestone), but this might be a little too similar to healing surges, and is at any rate a little arbitrary and clearly meta-game.

There’s a way to fix both the issue with being bloodied and the issue with spamming minor healing abilities, and it involves stealing an idea from 5e: there are HP thresholds that you can’t heal up above once you pass below them. Bloodied (ie: ½ hp) is one, but we’ll add two more: one at about ¾ HP (let’s call it Wounded), and one at about ¼ HP (let’s call it Critical). Once you’ve passed below that threshold, you can’t heal up above it, except with Daily abilities. To calculate this, let’s just divide the character’s new Max HP by 4, round it down, and consider that the amount of damage they need to take before they cross a threshold. Our example Fighter crosses these thresholds every 26 HP (Wounded at 80 HP, Bloodied at 54 HP, Critical at 28 HP). Our example Wizard crosses these thresholds every 9 HP (Wounded at 29 HP, Bloodied at 20 HP, Critical at 11 HP). Rather than be precise about the fractions, we just take any remainders that total to a full HP, and add them onto Critical (when you need them most anyway).

Crossing one of these thresholds is the new equivalent of “when you are bloodied.” After crossing one of these thresholds in an encounter, you can be considered “bloodied” until the end of that encounter. So a Dragonborn Fury kicks in for the rest of an encounter, after you become Wounded, Bloodied, or Critical. An ability that triggers when you become bloodied now triggers when you become Wounded, Bloodied, or Critical.

Step 3: A Little Rest and Relaxation
So, now you have characters who, over time, suffer injuries and gradually lose their HP, without getting it back. It’s a slow slide to 0 rather than the up-and-down experience of most of 4e. You can use that modification simply as-is, without any further alterations to the 4e game, if you want.

But, we still have a situation where a character recovers all of their HP with a night’s sleep. One good rest, and every wound and injury just goes away. There’s a few things we can do to make those injuries last a little longer.

The first is to make getting that rest a little more difficult. We can do this by making a distinction between areas where you can easily take a rest, and areas where it might be a little riskier. Going to sleep in the middle of a dungeon or out in the monster-infested wilderness is going to be a much different experience from bedding down at an inn and eating a hearty dinner. We can reflect that by making certain areas in the world Sanctuaries.

A Sanctuary becomes a place where the party can take an extended rest. If they are within a Sanctuary, they can sleep all night and gain the full benefits from that rest. If they are not in a Sanctuary, a night’s rest won’t recover them above their current threshold (wounded, bloodied, or critical), and you do not get Daily abilities back. A sleep out in the wilderness won’t help you much more than the cleric spamming Healing Word, and won’t bring back the big cures, either.

Sanctuaries become places you can place as a DM, or places that the characters can make – a skill challenge or a feat to be able to make someplace a Sanctuary, if only for one night, can be extremely compelling. With them in the game, we now have a way to limit where the party can heal up to full – only in a place that allows it. This might be a local inn, the character’s home, a druid’s grove, a thief’s safe-house, an ally’s farm, or any other location the DM decrees to be safe enough to rest fully in.

That’s the first prong: make the restoration of all HP dependent on being in the right place.

The second prong is this: extend the time it takes to get a rest.

It’s really trivially easy. You define a “short rest” as one night’s sleep, and an “extended rest” as a longer period, let’s say one week, of rest and relaxation and recuperation. You can take Short Rests anywhere by spending the night. You recover your “encounter” powers (which now come back every day) and up to your current HP threshold. You can take Extended Rests only in Sanctuaries, where you recover all HP and all “daily” powers (which now come back every week), but only if you take a week’s vacation there.

This does change the pacing of the game a bit: your encounter XP budget is really your “daily” XP budget, and the PC’s are expected to get through two (maybe three) days before taking a week off. Every two days, they get a Milestone. If you want to break a given “day” up into more than one encounter, it might pay to use more minions and fewer “standard” monsters.

Full Life Consequences
Ultimately, the effect of these three steps is to make your game more about the slow attrition of HP over time, rather than the constant up-and-down process that 4e players are familiar with. As an add-on effect, it makes the “someone must play a Leader” effect much less pronounced, since you don’t need to heal up in the middle of a combat anymore. A Leader can contribute a lot to this group, but isn’t as essential.

Naturally, with less ability to recover, the creeping demise facing your party will be much more intimidating. Every wound and hit and failed save will bring you inexorably closer to the reaper standing at 0 HP, and though the slide is slow, it is all the more frightening for being part of the cost of being a hero. Recovery is difficult – only possible after resting for a full week in a Sanctuary. A night’s sleep can help (it’ll recover Encounter powers and some HP), but it will only slow the slide. This might be attractive to games with a strong survival vibe.

And yet, the balance and math of the game remain practically unchanged. You can use any monster, any adventure, any challenge, and it will work as expected.

So, what do you think? Want to use this in your 4e games tomorrow? Think a 4e game using this rule might be a little more fun than a typical 4e game? Excited for the versatility of games this might offer you? See any problems I missed? Let me know down in the comments!
 

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Argyle King

Legend
same as 1e and 2e and 0e...


As I have limited familiarity with those editions, I cannot comment on them in a way I would even hope to describe as knowledgable. That being said, it is my impression (whether right or wrong) that the difference is not quite as pronounced as today's D&D. I believe that because converting adventures from those earlier editions to different systems has lead to results which appear to be consistent with the ideals behind the originally designed adventures in so much that PCs and non-PCs are on roughly equal footing in how they interact with the surrounding world. An example which comes to mind is a GURPS game I was in in which the group played through Ghost Tower of Inverness; how things played out in actual play seemed (again, I have very limited familiarity with the earlier D&D editions) consistent with what I believe was the designer's intent behind the adventure; things seemed to play out roughly how I'd imagine them to in those older D&D editions -based on my limited understanding of them. In contrast, some of the 4E adventures I've converted change quite drastically; mostly because the monsters are able to use tactics which are virtually impossible for them to use in 4E due to their physical inability to use them effectively in 4E. I do expect things to change between systems; especially when converting between systems which have a vastly different underlying philosophy, but it's some of the small and often not noticed details which change drastically enough to attract my attention the most. Like why is it that I can use an at-will power and destroy things which monsters who are supposedly (according to the fiction) can barely scratch with their strongest attacks? Later 4E books did greatly help in this regard, but it's not just attacking I'm talking about... slap a pair of dimensional shackles on a monster and see what their chances of breaking out are compared to a PC of similar level.

I enjoy 4E. That's not to say I feel it's perfect; I've been very vocal about some of the parts of it which bother me in the past. Still, I've come to enjoy it, but I've come to enjoy it because I realized I was better off embracing it for what it was rather than trying to fight against the system. Do I believe you can play different styles with 4th edition D&D? Certainly, I do believe that, and I even believe there are some groups for whom using D&D 4E to play a hardcore gritty game work quite well. I believe that because I've used GURPS to do game styles which other people feel you cannot do with that system. However, for me personally, the changes proposed in this thread wouldn't fix the problems I have had in the past when trying to use 4E for a "gritty" playstyle because the elements the ideas are fixing arent what I see as broken (for a lack of better words) when trying to perform that style with D&D 4E. That's not to say I believe they are bad ideas, but I'm not convinced they would make 4E feel "gritty." Instead, my initial impression is that I'd be playing 4E with the difficulty setting turned up, and for some reason I'd be able to use encounter powers even less often than I can now... which presents problems of its own because I already have players who feel it's strange to only be able to trip or disarm someone once every 5 minutes.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
As I have limited familiarity with those editions, I cannot comment on them in a way I would even hope to describe as knowledgable. That being said, it is my impression (whether right or wrong) that the difference is not quite as pronounced as today's D&D.
I figured you werent familiar with earlier editions...
Monsters included in my 1e MM included elfs and humans (of various types) and similar things... they didn't have stats or levels at all like the pcs just damage and hd and there was no basis for a comparison of how they interact with the world as you put it even.... the games designer said it was ludicrous to treat D&D like a simulation.

A trip in 4e is a DM managed page 42 maneuver (there is no power named that) probably involving an athletics check (but it might be something else depending on how you try it like clipping a chair with a magic missile so that it falls in front of an enemy and makes them fall over it? ).. it doesn't normally do damage but might if you find a situation that allows it. A successful knockdown assault is a Fighter At-Will maneuver doing STR mod in damage... it is weaker than it ought to be.. and ought to have some the larger you are the harder you fall leveling but that is me being picky)

A disarm against a fully aware fully trained adversary in real life is actually harder to do than killing somebody (or delivering a disabling injury). - 4e made it a high level daily for fighter but its reasonable to do with a skill challenge or as a finishing stroke, or adapt the rule for the combat use of Intimidation. (which is really the primary end impact of a disarm - if somebody can do that to you I recommend running)

If you can disarm somebody every 5 minutes you seriously outclass everyone you are fighting
Just being picky ... is that the grit that you really want? Cause its a DM using the tools the game gives him... You arent restricted to doing just the powers you have on your sheet.
 
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Warbringer

Explorer
I was thinking on this a while a go and the completely insane idea I came up with was dump Hit points, use surges only...

The base idea is everyone is a minion, one hit and see ya. Heroes has a pool of resources (surges) to mitigate the hit. For each 25% of hit points (the only real reason they exist to establish a threshold) the player must burn a surge or drop.

Other burn on surges is would be exhaustion (consequence from skill challenges), using non at will powers (encounter burn a surge on a failed "save", daily burns 1 surge automatically, 2nd on a failed "save"). This mirrors exertion and fatigue, possibly even for fear (1 frightened, 2 terrorized)

Recovery, 1 per short rest, plus 1 per 5 healing surges base. Long rest 3 plus 1 per 3 healing surges base.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I figured you werent familiar with earlier editions...
Monsters included in my 1e MM included elfs and humans (of various types) and similar things... they didn't have stats or levels at all like the pcs just damage and hd and there was no basis for a comparison of how they interact with the world as you put it even.... the games designer said it was ludicrous to treat D&D like a simulation.

A trip in 4e is a DM managed page 42 maneuver (there is no power named that) probably involving an athletics check (but it might be something else depending on how you try it like clipping a chair with a magic missile so that it falls in front of an enemy and makes them fall over it? ).. it doesn't normally do damage but might if you find a situation that allows it. A successful knockdown assault is a Fighter At-Will maneuver doing STR mod in damage... it is weaker than it ought to be.. and ought to have some the larger you are the harder you fall leveling but that is me being picky)

A disarm against a fully aware fully trained adversary in real life is actually harder to do than killing somebody (or delivering a disabling injury). - 4e made it a high level daily for fighter but its reasonable to do with a skill challenge or as a finishing stroke, or adapt the rule for the combat use of Intimidation. (which is really the primary end impact of a disarm - if somebody can do that to you I recommend running)

If you can disarm somebody every 5 minutes you seriously outclass everyone you are fighting
Just being picky ... is that the grit that you really want? Cause its a DM using the tools the game gives him... You arent restricted to doing just the powers you have on your sheet.

What I want is PCs who are part of the world; not above it. That doesn't preclude them from being above average; I'd just simply prefer the PCs not be so far beyond the world that there is a disconnect. On the other end of the spectrum, non-PCs struggle with the world around them. When you put the two pieces side by side, it's pretty noticeable.

For me, the most success I had with 4E was when I stopped trying to design encounters as though it was a fantasy game.

As a player, I'm aware you are not restricted to the character sheet. I only used the disarm as an example; another example would be a trip or a grapple which is actually effective. The problem I found with page 42 -when used in conjunction with 4E- was that either the improvised actions were not worth it compared to powers or they were worth it and then the question of "well, why wouldn't I do this all the time instead of using my powers?" came up.

I prefer being able to create encounters without worrying that the numbers the world is built upon aren't so easily broken by the PCs. Some time ago, I spoke on this topic by using the example of an encounter I designed on a suspended gondola. The PCs were on one gondola; the enemy was on a second gondola. In my head, I thought it would be cool. In actual play, it was barely any effort at all for the PCs to destroy the enemy gondola and send them all to their doom. The power the PCs could generate was so overwhelming compared what the game said the hardness and HP that the suspension mechanism of the the gondola should be that it turned what was supposed to be a cool encounter into one that really wasn't even an encounter at all. I *did* expecting cutting down the enemy gondola to be a valid tactic. However, I expected it would take far more effort than what it did. Now that I have more experience, I realize that I should ignore the numbers proposed by the DMG, but I didn't know that at the time I was a new DM. My point being that -even with the changes proposed in the OP- the PCs are still built in such a way which is way beyond the rest of the world they live in.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I was thinking on this a while a go and the completely insane idea I came up with was dump Hit points, use surges only...

The base idea is everyone is a minion, one hit and see ya. Heroes has a pool of resources (surges) to mitigate the hit. For each 25% of hit points (the only real reason they exist to establish a threshold) the player must burn a surge or drop.

Other burn on surges is would be exhaustion (consequence from skill challenges), using non at will powers (encounter burn a surge on a failed "save", daily burns 1 surge automatically, 2nd on a failed "save"). This mirrors exertion and fatigue, possibly even for fear (1 frightened, 2 terrorized)

Recovery, 1 per short rest, plus 1 per 5 healing surges base. Long rest 3 plus 1 per 3 healing surges base.

This idea excites me, and it's got some good grounding! It kind of works on the other way, but I like thinking about what that might add to the game.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I was thinking on this a while a go and the completely insane idea I came up with was dump Hit points, use surges only...

The base idea is everyone is a minion, one hit and see ya. Heroes has a pool of resources (surges) to mitigate the hit. For each 25% of hit points (the only real reason they exist to establish a threshold) the player must burn a surge or drop.

Other burn on surges is would be exhaustion (consequence from skill challenges), using non at will powers (encounter burn a surge on a failed "save", daily burns 1 surge automatically, 2nd on a failed "save"). This mirrors exertion and fatigue, possibly even for fear (1 frightened, 2 terrorized)

Recovery, 1 per short rest, plus 1 per 5 healing surges base. Long rest 3 plus 1 per 3 healing surges base.

Cool I recall thinking something of that sort once as surges were when all was said and done the real unit of longer term durability attrition...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
For me, the most success I had with 4E was when I stopped trying to design encounters as though it was a fantasy game.
no clue what that is supposed to mean ...

The strength for instance in 3e high level fighter characters is actually much much higher than anything in 4e.... if they cant smash through castle walls - when able to lift some of the numbers I have heard quoted... then the system is unrealistic as hell... and they are being strangely constrained in to mundane for some odd purpose.

As a player, I'm aware you are not restricted to the character sheet. I only used the disarm as an example;
Whatever... I am still hearing "I want it done exactly the way I am used to."

another example would be a trip or a grapple which is actually effective.
A school yard bullies I stick my foot out is gonna need some reason to be better than the maneuver which is part of a trained combatants fighting style. I mentioned the knock down assault which is a martial take down....

Thing is... people who are actually competent at what they do almost never improvise in order to get "normal" things done... there has to be something situational that makes doing that odd thing which is not part of there normal style better... If there is something special in the environment or set up it absolutely should be better than an at-will power akin to an encounter ability or daily... if its absolutely repeatable? shrug why do want it to be potent.

I like to use the characters abilities as a starting point for a improvised thing for instance a ranger pc came upon enemies on a wall where the patrolling guards were on two levels he was able to by patience and a bit of guess work (and a skill roll - I think we used perception, enable his twin strike to hit two off the wall at the right moment causing them to fall down and hit the two below... the likelihood of guards being set up like that isnt that huge and is something I as dm can control the frequency of.. so why not.

I have allowed a player to improvise using a spell to perform a heat weapon maneuver where he was attacking the weapons of the enemy instead of the enemy...

A thread on wizards ... about this kind of stuff.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...sation_or_page_42_use...&post_num=6#514389547
 
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Argyle King

Legend
no clue what that is supposed to mean ... I prefer actual fantasy to fantasy vietnam paranoia and the strength for instance in 3e high level characters is actually much higher than anything in 4e.

Whatever... I am still hearing I want it done exactly the way it used to ... nothing really coherent.
.


You seem to be assuming I'm saying I found 3rd Edition better. I'm actually not arguing that at all. However, I am comparing 4E to other games I play -which includes games that are not D&D.

I'm also not even suggesting "fantasy vietnam." What I am suggesting (and have said several times) is that the PCs are part of the world; not set so far above it by default. Note, that's not the same thing as saying PCs are average or the same as NPCs. I'm merely suggesting that I find it a bit jarring -especially if my intent is to run something "gritty"- that PCs are built on a scale which so easily exceeds the scale which the rest of the world is built upon. To me, this is especially noticeable when you put the mechanics of 4E up against the early "Points of Light" idea.

The fiction talks about terrors in the night; demons; things man was not meant to know, and how hard the world is, but I dont feel the mechanics often do a good job of supporting that. That's actually part of what I meant when I said I had the best luck with 4E when I didn't run it as a fantasy game; I ditched many of the default setting assumptions and went with what I can only describe as some sort of gonzo sci-fi/fantasy mix. Again, I'm not suggesting it wasn't fun; it was a lot of fun. It's just not anywhere near what I would consider gritty, and I believe making 4E gritty requires reworking a lot of the underlying math of the system. Not math involved with HP or surges, but math even deeper than that; the math upon which pieces of the world are assumed to be built with; encounter budget guidelines, and things of that nature.
 

Argyle King

Legend
Another thing I would personally do if I were trying to make 4E gritty would be to ditch the default save system as much as possible and replace it with what would essentially be the disease track. I feel that is a 4E idea which should have been used a lot more, and there are a lot of things which can be handled with it. An injury might be a "disease" which is treated by heal checks to set the bone or wrap bandages or whatever the case may be; success gets you closer to being healed, but doesn't heal you completely. This can be handled in a way similar to some of the ideas suggested by the OP, but without needing to fiddle with HP or surges at all. Instead, different types of injuries can take different amounts of time. A twisted ankle or a stress fracture may be something which can be cured with a few checks over a short amount of time. In contrast, something like a compound fracture may take several checks, and the amount of time between checks would be greater.

I'd even go so far as to look for ways to use the disease track to handle things such as crafting. Success would move you closer to creating the product desired; a failure might stagnate your progress; bad enough failure would take you further away.
 

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