How can I stall combat for a couple rounds?

[InVinoVeritas]

Thanks for talking about all this. Here's a few thoughts on everything:

• Sometimes, taking two hours out of play to reroll and introduce a new character is appropriate consequences. It's important to remember that you're not actually killing anyone here, nor are you preventing the players from playing. If your players are asking for more consequences, they might very well be asking for more death. Character death is ok.
• I still haven't heard anything about what the non-sneaky players feel about the situation. It's absolutely vital and key to understanding the whole of the problem. In fact, you can't possibly solve the problem without taking their feelings into account, so we need to talk about it. What does the paladin's player think about the sneaky PCs that may or may not be there?
• I'd avoid a CR+2 encounter, myself, if I could get away with it. However, I understand that if part of the party engages the challenging encounter while another part avoids it, the engagers are pretty much doomed. Perhaps the sneaky players haven't figured that out yet. What are their feelings about this?

All in all, we still won't be able to come to a conclusion about what needs to be done until we understand how the players--both the sneaky and non-sneaky--feel about the party split.

So, Noumenon, what do the players feel about this situation?

 

[TheClone]

I guess it is somehow a problem that higher level fights with 3e-D&D tend to grow shorter instead of longer. That makes it all very tricky. It can become a TPK or a glorious victory in a moments notice. Just one spell rolled fine or the fighter not hitting one full attack. This is bound to the rules.

Some ideas I have on your problem:

• If the players want to sneak just to use their skills more often and show their value, integrate some cover on the walls to allow them to sneak about inside the room, next to the combat.
• As mentioned before: Subdue the paladin. You don't have to kill him, at least not with intelligent or humanoid monsters. Use him as a hostage. Let the monsters occupy the crossing where the "sneak path" leads of and the rest of the party is tripped inside the dungeon. Let the monsters send a runner to fetch an additional group of monsters form the next room (and the runner really can run/hustle/double move because he has not to be quit. With all that opposition and maybe the way back blocked, there will be very interesting negotiations or a quick surrender. Or even a TPK, but that seems not to be your groups style (although while talking about consequences, character death is one and should not be ruled out, it gives some adrenalin, at least for me). So with the whole party subdued/surrendered/whatever nobody has to abandon his character. Start a rescuing mission (afterwards players may even chose to switch to the rescuing character and let go their old one). That involves consequences by loosing the loves character for soem time, but it not a severe as a TPK.
• Talk to the players out of game. If they really are not on the mood to form a group and work together, it will always be a problem for a D&D game (and most other rpgs, too). It is really difficult to dm and the rules are not written for that. Maybe they can accept that and change minds.
• Do not brute-force or railroad them into a group play. If they don't want to work together, nobody can force them. It's sad, but that also means that playing published adventures will always be a problem and will invole lots of work for you as a DM. I don't know if you want to do that, but if not, tell your players. The DM always has to spend most of the time and the players should award that and not burden you with more work. Maybe that's a reason that helps them.
• Give the players some warning of the upcoming encounter. Strange smells (orcs never brush teeth or whipe the poo from their asses ), a succeeded listen or spot check, a stealth scout. All that may give them the clue "There's an encounter in the next room!" Now the players can think about tactics. The stealthy guys may sneak around. The paladin waits some rounds or until the sneaky guys give signal and then the party rushes in from both sides and catch the monsters off guard. That'll be an impressive bloodshed...
• Maybe it's just about the sneaky guys wanting to have their big (ego) moment, jumping from the shadows and doing sneaky weaky LOTS of damage. If it_'s just about those numbers and a flashy entry to combat, you may use the terrain. Put some interesting items or terrain so that it is reachable much more easier from the paladins entrance. Provide enough cover (or smokesticks) to let them sneak in with the rest of the party and use the options available. If the monsters are of guard, there may be an unattended ballista ("You backstab him with a f**king ballista?!"). Surely after the first shot, the monster will attack the shooter. Maybe just by first disabling the ballista (wooden weapon parts break easily, 3e has rules for that) and giving the PC a chance to flee and hide again. Maybe a bucket of alchemists fire and a balcony? Maybe a pit and a chance to bull rush the monsters playing poker right from their chars (AND a buck of alchemists fire, that'll be cool). And so on, be creative

That's it from me, hope it helps.

P.S.: I love the US for their handling of the totally insulting and brutal word beginning with f

 

[ExploderWizard]

Nope, the players all seem not to mind death and sometimes beg for consequences. (I do a lot of consequences as far as "this happens as a result of your doing this," I just don't do a lot of "you did this and so I'm going to nail you to the wall.") I just can't rid myself of the feeling that "D&D" is when you have a group of four characters opening the door to a room and killing a monster, and when you are ripping up your character sheet after dying in a random encounter or splitting up the party because your character isn't motivated to go along, you are not playing the game any more. I'm not sure I can find common ground with my players on this.

If you and your players want different things out of the game then perhaps discussing it with them and coming to a satisfying middle ground would be the best solution.

Your players may be playing extra risky just to see if you have the stones to let them fail as they propbably should in such situations. If this is the case, then finding ways to keep them alive is just prolonging the situation.
The harder you try to preserve the PC's lives the more ridiculous risks and boneheaded tactics the players will try until their characters die or the campaign becomes one big joke.

You don't have to be a "killer" DM to simply allow the players to stand or fall based on their own decisions and luck. Once the players realize that death or survival depends on good play decisions then hopefully their tactics will begin to reflect that.

But what if?

The players don't seem to care what happens to their characters.

You might have a group of really casual players who approach the game as a kind of dungeon boardgame and a dying character simply means please insert another quater and continue playing. This can be a fun playstyle but if it isn't what the DM wants to run there will be problems. This will require an open, honest discussion with everyone involved. If the players really don't want anything more from the game then there is little that can be done apart from running what they want or finding a group that likes another kind of game.

If your players may want to be more involved in what is actually happening in the campaign, there are ways to help motivate them. One way to do this is with campaign rewards. A severe penalty imposed on a player for character death is a kind of negative reinforcement that makes the experience less enjoyable. Without any drawback for death though, there is little real incentive for going out of the way to preserve a PC life.

Positive reinforcement can get better results than negative. Campaign rewards are the kind of thing earned through play much like treasure or XP but are a form of non-transferable currency. Gifts and favors from NPC's are great for this. If the best magical items in the game come as special gifts and the items will only function for the recipient it is good reason to keep a character with one of these alive if at all possible. The same thing goes for favors and debts of gratitude. It's important that these rewards be better than any "standard" rewards in the game and that the players are aware of this.

Suppose this paladin received a magical sword as a gift from a Fey princess for a quest reward. This sword is better than anything on the standard treasure tables and will grow in power as the character gains levels. It is magically linked to the paladins soul and functions as a normal weapon for anyone else. The princess departed to a spirit realm after that adventure so a replacement isn't an option.

Based on that information would the paladin's player?

Want to charge into certain death just for kicks.

Want to be raised if he/she did get killed.

Possibly consider surrender to certain death.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm going from recollection here,

Then please stop it, because you're mostly wrong.
[sblock]

Move

The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.
...
Withdraw

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.

You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed.

Note that despite the name of this action, you don’t actually have to leave combat entirely.
...
Run

You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.

[/sblock]
Hustling is a name for Double Move (or vice verse), and you can't double move twice in the same round.

 

[Noumenon]

Positive reinforcement can get better results than negative. Campaign rewards are the kind of thing earned through play much like treasure or XP but are a form of non-transferable currency. Gifts and favors from NPC's are great for this. If the best magical items in the game come as special gifts and the items will only function for the recipient it is good reason to keep a character with one of these alive if at all possible. The same thing goes for favors and debts of gratitude. It's important that these rewards be better than any "standard" rewards in the game and that the players are aware of this.

I really like that -- it will get people attached to their characters. Also, before I joined the group it was often a problem that characters who died offered more treasure than killing monsters and came back with more treasure than their earlier character (due to below standard treasure awards and starting with standard treasure). One of my goals has been to make NPC contacts a meaningful type of reward and I'll just amp that up.

As far as how the players feel about splitting the party, I sent out a few e-mails to ask.

 

[steenan]

Isn't the few rounds' time that the party gives you by running somewhere a perfect time for the BBEG to talk with the paladin? Even better, this conversation may be played one on one with the player, without the rest knowing what was said.

I'd use some kind of a "black knight" as an enemy. Somebody who is evil, but also valorous and honorable. I'd use him to ask the paladin why he travels with a group of cowards, who run at the first sight of danger and leave him to die. I'd let him know that the enemy understands the paladin and shares most of his values. Then I'd suggest switching sides - no threats, no forcing the decision, just "Take your time. Think about it and choose wisely. We will meet again."

This could give somebody a very fun surprise some time later.

 

[Noumenon]

I like that -- how can I stall combat? Think of excuses to roleplay instead! I could even try to have some handy -- "switch to my side," "let me explain my evil plan, now that you're doomed," hmm, what else.

By the way, I wrote my players and got this:

If i had died i would have been upset as a player. As a paladin though i should have predicted the rogue players thinking of themselves first and party second.

One of the sneaky players is the kind who will keep playing Castle Crashers when everybody else is dead for level after level, so I expect him to keep sneaking off and eventually get the paladin killed and make him mad. Perhaps if the paladin gets some treasure out of it, like an offer to switch sides and a bribe...

 

[TheClone]

If the paladin is mad as a player at his char dying, why is he always going head first into the combat alone? Being a paladin is no about being stupid (although most are ). Being a paladin is preventing evil creatures from doing evil things. Preventing that they will do it ever. So they mostly are killed. But if the paladin dies, no monster get killed. e need to prevent them from pursuing their evil plans, but if he waits a minute or two until the other players sneak into their place, what harm can that do?

And if the player of the rogue really is not ready to support the group, some outgame talk might help. But ingame seems not be the right idea.