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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Goonalan" data-source="post: 5069398" data-attributes="member: 16069">Every time I read threads like this I start to feel like I'm an idiot and don't know anything about the game, or else I just don't care enough...I'm a DM, I was a player for five or so years- didn't much care for it, DMing now over 20 years.I play via Maptools and Skype, see sig for game.Some of my players have less than optimised characters, we've played through all the H series and are approaching P1. I've never really looked at my players character sheets (more or less ever- in 20 years), I play with grown ups- that's their job. I've never sat down and worked out how to optimise anything, I've never thought to do so, don't know if my players have...Have I been doing it wrong all along, allowing my players to under-perform, is there some to be adhered to group instruction I've failed to heed- should I cull the weak in the group.Pull their weight, a team game- well yes, at times, but try telling Lucan our Rogue who phased into the treasure chamber during the big boss fight and emptied all (and I mean all) of the money into his Bag of Holding, while the remaining five players battled for their lives against hordes of villains and the big bad. The striker spent the remainder of the bloody fracas dozing till it was over.And yes their were repercussions, but that was roleplay, and some raised voices, but... He was roleplaying, it's a roleplaying game and he was playing entirely within character. Obviously he's only tried it once or twice- in a year and a half of play, for obvious reasons.I don't want optimised, I want characters that are unforgetable-The Dwarven Priest of Moradin using a live crocodile as a sort of floating battering ram (after burying his Chainsaw of Moradin in the creatures brain).The Dwarven Fighter (Int ? Wis ? Ch ? All below 12) Bluffing his way in to see the Duergar Chieftain with tales of the Grimmerzhul sleeping with his sister.And on it goes.Some people may have to roll dice and that to get their kicks, and don't get me wrong, it's fun for a while, but you're making a narrative- and the rules are... well, there are no rules (I know about the books I just've not got round to reading them much).The story is everything, and that's what I do, with a lot of help from my players.Optimise, you're worrying about nothing- size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it. To address the OPs point.Tell the DM if you want, otherwise just get on with it and have fun, you sound like you've got a touch of swordmage-envy; what is a sword-mage anyway? Sorry, as I say, only been playing the game 25+ years.One of my players didn't like his character- I let him rebuild him (he was a 9th level Rogue, he's now a 9th level Monk) I fixed the narrative of course, just like I did when one of the players discovered he was in fact a killer-robot-dwarf, basically anything goes... It's just a game etc. Cheers Paul</blockquote>

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