How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[Kinneus]

I played the first game of a campaign with a new group online today. Some of the people were new to 4e, possibly new to D&D in general. And that's fine, that's cool.
But when the Swordmage told us he had a 14 Intelligence... I got worried. How can you tactfully bring this up? I'd like to offer to help him retool the character. Should I bring this up in a post-game wrap-up? Over email? The fact that we're doing this online complicates things a bit, etiquette-wise. It's hard to convey intent over text sometimes, and I don't want to give him the impression that I'm trying to boss him around or telling him he sucks. Should I leave this up to the DM to take care of? I know how annoying it is to try out a new system, and suddenly get bogged down by tons of 'helpful advice' from your fellow players on how to build your character. But I don't think he wants to play a dumb swordmage for roleplaying reasons. I think he just didn't know how to build the character.
How can I go about this tactfully?

 

[Piratecat]

I think I'd email the DM, discuss your concerns, and leave it up to the DM to chat with him. If the player later mentioned being frustrated I'd also bring it up with him as well, offering to help tweak the PC. But you're right - it's touchy.

 

[jmucchiello]

You could just not worry about it and let things play out so he can actually LEARN from his supposed "mistake".

 

[Hussar]

Honestly, I don't think there's a problem with being upfront about it. It's an online game, so take it to whispers during a down moment in the game when you guys don't need to be doing something else. Just ask him why he put a 14 in the stat.

You don't need to be like, "Dude, you did WHAT? How stupid are you?"

Just ask directly - "Hey, I saw that you put a 14 in your Int. I was just wondering why? Int is your main stat, so, usually people put their highest score there."

I don't think too many people would get fussed about that.

 

[Dayspire]

I think the first step if for you to realize that his character doesn't suck. Nor do his choices in building the character. You simply have a different idea about optimization than he does. It's entirely possible he knows what he's doing! I would offer aid in case he doesn't know what he's doing, but you need to understand that not everyone is interested in having highly efficient and laser-focused characters.

Let's remember that a couple of editions ago, having a 9 in your 'prime stat' was acceptable enough to qualify for a class.

 

[Rechan]

Send him an email saying that a 14 in Int is likely not the best way to go. Dont' tell him he must change it, but simply say something along the lines of:

"Int is really important for the class. Just letting you know beforehand, you might find yourself missing a lot."

 

[Festivus]

Unsolicited advice about my character is a sure fire way to not only put me on the defensive, but down right piss me off. I rarely build characters to be any where near optimal, and I don't need advice from anyone who studies the optimal way to build and play class X. I already know it's sub-optimal... perhaps it's intentional.

If I were to want advice, that is a different story. If I get frustrated with how the character is in the game, I might reach out. But 99% of the time, my character choices are reflective of what has happened in the story.

Thankfully, my friends all know that I do this and don't offer unsolicited advice.

 

[JustKim]

The PCs in my game started with 16 as their highest score. We used the standard array, and because 4E was brand new, there was little if any number crunching going on. Some folks did not even choose a race that gave a bonus to their prime stat.

At level 11 the PCs have not been defeated, have not needed to rest more often, have not found the opposition too difficult.

My advice is to mention it once, and if he doesn't agree leave well enough alone.

 

[Chainsaw]

Send him an email saying that a 14 in Int is likely not the best way to go. Dont' tell him he must change it, but simply say something along the lines of:

"Int is really important for the class. Just letting you know beforehand, you might find yourself missing a lot."

Something along these lines is probably good..

"I'm sure you realize Int is pretty important for this class, and you might have put it low for role playing reasons, but I thought I'd double check just in case you're new to 4E and didn't realize the impact it might have down the road."

My experience is that you have to be like 10x nicer and more tactful in e-mails than in real life or you risk miscommunicating your tone or intent.

 

[Kzach]

I think the first step if for you to realize that his character doesn't suck.

Yes, it does.

Nor do his choices in building the character.

Yes, they do.

You simply have a different idea about optimization than he does.

A 14 in a prime stat in 4e is not optimising on any scale known to man or geek.

It's entirely possible he knows what he's doing!

No, he doesn't.

I would offer aid in case he doesn't know what he's doing, but you need to understand that not everyone is interested in having highly efficient and laser-focused characters.

There's nothing 'highly efficient' about putting an 18 in a class primary stat. Highly efficient would be putting a 20 in that stat and getting Weapon/Implement Expertise at 1st-level.

An 18 in a primary stat isn't 'laser-focused', it's simply what the system is balanced around and although there are rare instances where a 16 is used in a prime stat for some hybrid or half-elf or weird charop builds that only start to shine at 20th-level and suck until then, putting a 14 in a prime stat is just daft.

Let's remember that a couple of editions ago, having a 9 in your 'prime stat' was acceptable enough to qualify for a class.

This isn't 2e. Comparing the two is a ridiculous argument.

I'll concede that there are some groups who don't care if they suck. But as we saw in a previous similar thread, most people don't want their characters to die constantly and never succeed in their missions. That requires having a reasonable character, not a deliberately gimped bunch of non-adventurers who fail at everything.

4e is on a bell-curve. 18 seems to be about where it's balanced around a 50/50 chance to hit every time you attack. For every +1 higher or lower, the chance to hit/miss increases exponentially instead of a flat 5% per plus on a d20.

Consider in a 10 round fight that a character with a primary stat of 18 will hit roughly around 5 times out of 10 attacks. Just reducing this to a 17, will change this to about 3 times out of 10 attacks. At 14, he'll hit maybe once a combat*.

So now you have a character that is nothing more than a bag of hit points. He contributes nothing else to the group. Combats will now take 2-4 extra rounds to complete. And as the defender of the group, he doesn't fulfil his role, so someone else has to take up his slack.

And given his low prime stat, I doubt his skills are anything to talk about either, so he's also contributing failure to skill challenges.

Now sure, some people might think that's fun, but I doubt many people see him as anything but a liability that detracts from the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone at the table.



*Yes, I don't know the exact numbers, I'm just parroting what I've read on charop boards. If that is incorrect, sue me.