How important is it to you or your players for characters to feel "overpowered"?

[Thomas Shey]

I am. Why the heck would you exclude 5e from that?

Because its so large any statement including it essentially says "Everything is D&D players." Its technically correct, but will give a lot of false positives the moment you step outside the D&D sphere, because there are all kinds of things that D&D does and D&D players (especially those who only play D&D) that are not true when viewing the entire rest of the hobby, even given the variance within games and players in that rest of hobby.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because its so large any statement including it essentially says "Everything is D&D players." Its technically correct, but will give a lot of false positives the moment you step outside the D&D sphere, because there are all kinds of things that D&D does and D&D players (especially those who only play D&D) that are not true when viewing the entire rest of the hobby, even given the variance within games and players in that rest of hobby.

Okay. But if I’m talking about ttrpg players in general then excluding the 800 lb gorilla doesn’t really tell me much about the state of the hobby as a whole either. Right?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That was true in RQ too, but that didn't mean it wasn't frequently necessary (or at least unavoidable).

I mean, the maths here are not difficult. Unless the PCs can consistently put their thumbs on the scale to make combats easier for them (and if they can do so consistently they're either brilliant or I'm back to suggesting you're still slanting things in their favor, just not mechanically), being generous, a player should be losing a character about every four times a combat comes up. Its got to be an awfully low combat game for that not to be a pretty frequent event by most people's standards.

It is as necessary as the players make it, and in many cases as difficult and deadly as the players make it, because the players decide where the PCs go and what they do, not me. You seem to be assuming some sort of adventure path play I don't participate in, or maybe that players can't come up with ways to rig the odds in their PCs favor, or both.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'll note that B5 was still primarily an ensemble show, even if it was early planned for both Sinclair and Alexander to have important roles.

On the other hand, there are shows that rotate much more heavily around a single character; in some cases the single character is the only continuing element in the show. Reacher and the Dresden Files come to mind here. (Its not a coincidence these are based on written fiction where there's never really a need to replace the central character(s).

Those shows are IMO a poor analog for any kind of RPG play I'm interested in, so I'm not sure what the relevance is.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Okay. But if I’m talking about ttrpg players in general then excluding the 800 lb gorilla doesn’t really tell me much about the state of the hobby as a whole either. Right?

I'm just saying that if you are going to include D&D, you might as well be just talking about D&D because it lives so much a life that doesn't care what's going on in the rest of the hobby. That's been true for a long time, but its even more true in the 5e era. Its got its own ecosystem that is, in practice, awfully different from any other game in the hobby (and that becomes even more true if you sweep in the obvious offshoots).

Edit: I should make it clear I'm including the other D&D-adjacents here for the most part, too. For all their differences, PF2e and D&D5e players are unlikely to have radically different expectations other than to some degree, about matters of mechanical engagement.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It is as necessary as the players make it, and in many cases as difficult and deadly as the players make it, because the players decide where the PCs go and what they do, not me. You seem to be assuming some sort of adventure path play I don't participate in, or maybe that players can't come up with ways to rig the odds in their PCs favor, or both.

But they shouldn't be the only ones deciding whether a combat occurs. Other forces in the setting should have occasions where they decide to initiate trouble to pre-empt the possible actions of the PCs. And no, I'm not assuming the players can always rig things in their favor; if they can, then we're back to my conclusion that you are putting your thumb on the scales, just not mechanically.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Those shows are IMO a poor analog for any kind of RPG play I'm interested in, so I'm not sure what the relevance is.

At least stories with ongoing groups who have elements that are not easily replaced are not that far off what a lot of people are interested in, and bluntly, you aren't the center of this discussion.

 

[aramis erak]

Okay. But if I’m talking about ttrpg players in general then excluding the 800 lb gorilla doesn’t really tell me much about the state of the hobby as a whole either. Right?

Wrong.
The state of the hobby is best illustrated by the second tier. Not the lower tiers, much as I love some of the indie games, nor that first tier that wavers between being just D&D and to including Pathfinder...

Compare to Boeing Aircraft Corporation... They're bordering on having to reorganize again. They have a NASA funded project that's already $2 Billiion over budget (80% over budget), and looks to be going nowhere, they're having nightmares from strikes because they treat their people like crap and appear to ignore Engineering staff warnings... Boeing is the largest Aviation company west of the Atlantic. Does it describe the nature of the Aerospace indystries? No! There is a Brasilian manufacturer making fine aircraft. There's a dozen aircraft companies supporting commercial aviation in Canada and the US. Boeing is going under, but they're all doing well. Boeing, however, gets ALL the news coverage. No aviation company still in business does it as badly as Boeing... So, while Boeing is something like 20% of the seats flown, and 20% of the people employed, it's not reflective of the industry.

That C7, Fria Ligan, Mongoose, Modiphius, Pegasus Spiele, and SJG are all making living wages? That's the state of the industry.
There's enough outside D&D to support competition. And better, Modiphius and Fria Ligan have some distribution deals in place. So Not just competition, but robust enough a second tier to allow them to compete without needing to be cutthroat about it.

Oh, and WotC? They're in the black. The rest of HasBro? looking kind of grim. D&D is supporting the overstuffed giant.

 

[Lanefan]

But they shouldn't be the only ones deciding whether a combat occurs. Other forces in the setting should have occasions where they decide to initiate trouble to pre-empt the possible actions of the PCs. And no, I'm not assuming the players can always rig things in their favor; if they can, then we're back to my conclusion that you are putting your thumb on the scales, just not mechanically.

Absolutely the PCs should sometimes find themselves in fights they didn't see coming. Ambushes, blown perception rolls, or just simply getting caught off guard.

The question revolves around those fights the PCs can see coming and thus can - if they want - avoid or mitigate.

 

[ad&d wilderness encounter]

I really don't care if my characters suck, mainly because I play mostly OSR stuff. In a 5E game I guess my characters "power level" kind of matters, because it'd be boring to be left behind the people doing actual character builds.