How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[aurance]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a fighter with 8 Str, a swordmage with 8 int, a Sith Lord or a badger or another character's awakened spoon in D&D, but you can't deny that there are certain assumptions in the game to make it function in a way that is typical of a D&D adventure. If a new player isn't aware of those assumptions (and it's higly likely they missed at least a few), I would not hesitate to discuss it with said player and explain my reasoning. If at the end of that they want to keep doing it, then that is certainly their right.

At least for me, I have little enough time available as a group for RPGs to be doing trial and error. I'd rather someone just tell me up front what's good, statistics wise, so that I can make an informed decision (and that includes EITHER making my character statistically stronger, or not going with the recommendation for RP purposes or what have you).

Short answer: Tell the player why you think it sucks. If he wants to keep the 14 after that, back off and let him do it. To not even bring it up because you assume he'll be somehow offended is pretty silly. I'm sure they're adults and they can deal.

 

[Elric]

I think the first step if for you to realize that his character doesn't suck. Nor do his choices in building the character. You simply have a different idea about optimization than he does. It's entirely possible he knows what he's doing! I would offer aid in case he doesn't know what he's doing, but you need to understand that not everyone is interested in having highly efficient and laser-focused characters.

Right! Some people think that there's an objective standard for character effectiveness, but there isn't one. The increase in skill bonuses to Diplomacy and Streetwise he gets from having, say, a 14 Charisma may be more important than the benefits from higher Intelligence.

If the character does become a problem, if the DM is good he can change the way he runs the game somewhat to fix it.

 

[pawsplay]

How can you solve a problem that does not yet exist?

 

[aurance]

How can you solve a problem that does not yet exist?

At the same time, I'd like to be informed of a potential problem, before I sit through a few hours of playing something that sucks in certain ways 'cause I don't know the game. At least have the explicit option of knowing that it sucks in certain ways.

 

[Hussar]

I think therein lies the problem.

None of us know if the player in question made his decision based on knowledge of the system or ignorance. If the player conciously made the choice to play with lower stats, that's perfectly groovy. However, if the player did it because he thought that having all stats at 12-14 was mechanically better than having a better prime stat, then a bit of advice is not remiss. In other words, until you know why he did what he did, you cannot really know if it was a mistake or not.

Which gets back to my original point. Ask. Nicely, politely, in a whisper during the game, just ask. "Why did you put a 14 in your Int?"

Would people honestly get offended by this question?

 

[comrade raoul]

This is such a weird discussion! Some people seem to be saying that there are right or wrong ways to build a character that hold absolutely; others that it's all a matter of arbitrary preference, and that you're intruding on someone's magic personal space if you say anything about it. Nobody has said anything about groups, which is surprising. After all, gaming is cooperative; and a well-designed character makes play fun for everyone, not just the player in control of it. If somebody is ruining the game for everyone else because he somehow thinks it would be appropriate, in what is probably just a shallow role-playing sense, that his swordmage should have an Int 14 and suck in combat, better to let him know than expect everyone else to suffer in silence. If everyone is okay with a game where the swordmage sucks in combat--if the game is not combat-intensive, and stats are understood expressively, then obviously nobody has grounds for complaint. But the point is that whether anybody has grounds for complaint depends on the relationship between the player and the group, not the player and the rules or the player and herself.

(That is, different groups have different implicit expectations, based on the kind of game they're playing. The designers of 4e clearly intended for most 4e games to center on combat, and intentionally wrote the rules so that they would be fun and playable for strategically-designed characters (that is, moderately optimized ones). Most players are likely to have less fun if combat goes badly, and combat goes badly without a balanced group that works well together. So there is a clear sense in which the swordmage is a badly designed character, according to the default expectations. Expectations may differ from the default, but they are unlikely to.)

 

[Festivus]

How can you solve a problem that does not yet exist?

by playing "Time and Temp"?

Time & Temp « Dig a Thousand Holes Publishing

I agree with you. There probably isn't going to be a huge variation in the gameplay because of this, and it's the other players character. I would tread lightly unless asked for assistance.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This is such a weird discussion! Some people seem to be saying that there are right or wrong ways to build a character that hold absolutely; others that it's all a matter of arbitrary preference, and that you're intruding on someone's magic personal space if you say anything about it. Nobody has said anything about groups, which is surprising. After all, gaming is cooperative; and a well-designed character makes play fun for everyone, not just the player in control of it.

the problem is that magic 8 balls aside, no one, not even the OP knows if there will be a problem... SO right way/ wrong way... group dynomic... it is all wait and see. Maybe he will be a fun character, maybe he will be useful... or maybe he will be boreing, or maybe he will be a drag on resources... you have to wait and see...

If somebody is ruining the game for everyone else because he somehow thinks it would be appropriate, in what is probably just a shallow role-playing sense, that his swordmage should have an Int 14 and suck in combat, better to let him know than expect everyone else to suffer in silence. If everyone is okay with a game where the swordmage sucks in combat--if the game is not combat-intensive, and stats are understood expressively, then obviously nobody has grounds for complaint.

why are we asssumeing in a vacume 1 stat will make him suck? If he had a 16 stat and a +2 prof weapon, or a 14 stat and a +3 prof weapon he has the same attack bonus...

(((Inless you are saying following the basics of 16 prime stat +2 prof makes sucky characters when that is the default the game uses...))))

So there is a clear sense in which the swordmage is a badly designed character, according to the default expectations. Expectations may differ from the default, but they are unlikely to.)

um defualt assumtion is a 16 prime stat and a +2 prof weapon... between feat bonuses and prof bonuses is a grand total -1 really even noticable???


If I made an Elvin swordmage, and I went the sheilding path...and used the defalt array I would be stuck with the following stats:
16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10

Now my 2 stas I care about are CON and INT, but I don't get a bonus to eaither, so I have a 16 and a 14... isn't it at that point really just 'offence/defence' quastions??? a 16 COn means 1 more pt of sheilding, 2 more hp and 1 more surge...

until we know for sure the reason for the 14 it is all guess work

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

How can you solve a problem that does not yet exist?

QFT. Wait a few sessions, see if something develops. If it's not obvious he has some reason or preference for playing a "sub-optimal" character, or if it looks like the group's fun is threatened as a result, then politely bring it up with the DM.

But until you're sure he's actually a detriment to the game, don't sweat it. It's not a problem.

 

[Pig Champion]

I hate this type of crap. For years I had to hear it about making CHA 12-14 Half-Orc bards. There's no problem with a player, playing with 14 INT and I kinda think anybody who thinks so would never be welcome at my table.